nfitz
Superstar
What about it being about just another mindless thread that has no point, other than providing a URL to another website, rather than providing real content?
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Canada got it right on Cuba!
- Thread starter jade_lee
- Start date
jade_lee
Active Member
I find the topic very relevant considering the changing relationship of Cuba with the Obama administration policy shift and the fact that Canadian policy is an example of good neighbours make good trading partners. However that being said our less than stellar thinking Harper appeared on Fox news during the Summit of the Americas stating that he is "an anti-Communist Conservative", lets hope he doesn't shoot off his mouth in China like that. Now we are delaying visa approval for the Cuban Minister for Trade and Investment in response to Cubans canceling a visit earlier this month by Peter Kent. Harper undoes the common sense Canadian approach towards Cuba by defining himself as an anti communist conservative on Fox News and thinks it will go unnoticed? Thiese are definitely issues that Canadians should be considering when now we are informed that the Harper foreign aid is going to be directed towards south Americans....Americans to the south of us. He isn't warming up to Cuba but instead is being the provocateur with unnecessary rhetoric of the cold war gone by. That is not our policy up to now, our policy towards Cuba appears to be Harperizing in front of our very closed eyes.
jade_lee
Active Member
!) We maintained our autonomy, making Canadian decisions with respect to our trade relationship with Cuba and we are respected for the trade relationship we have with Cuba despite punishing US acts.
2) What negative impact has our relationship had on Cuban society? Cuba has not been at war for a very long time. Canadians value Cuba enough to visit the country often. Like Toronto, they enjoy the tourist dollars. Is that not enough for you? We are not in the regime change business.
kEiThZ
Superstar
1) We don't ever cede our autonomy during trade relations except when we sign a trade pact, free trade agreement, etc. We have no such agreement with Cuba hence we have ceded nothing. And although I doubt we got much in terms of 'respect' for resisting US pressure and continue to trade with Cuba, I'll give you the benefit of the dobut. Now, can you show how this 'respect' has been translated into any positive geopolitical or geostrategic gain for Canada?
2) That Cuba has not experienced conflict for a long time has nothing to do with us. And no it's not enough that Canadians are able to spend tourist dollars there. Aside from the fact, that it's bad for our economy (how many cuban tourists do we get in return?), is that what you value as a Canadian? That you have the right to frollick in the sun while some poor sap gets tortured down the street, all supported by your tourist dollars? You are right that we are not in the regime change business. However, that does not mean that we should not attempt to make a difference at all. Do you feel proud about our leadership against South Africa during the apartheid years? Well why should I not expect our government to show similar gumption with regards to other states who torture their own citizens? At the very least, telling the regime they are not welcome in Canada would be a good start. It would send the message that we don't approve of the way they treat their citizens.
Tell me do you have a double standard for torture? Is it bad when an American government does it but its okay when the Cuban government does it? So it's terrible when the Bush administration tortures terror suspects and you think Cheney should be waterboarded in revenge. But when Castro kills political opponents, routinely tortures dissidents (with a lot more than waterboarding) that's okay with you? It's all good as long as you have the right to frollick in the sun and spend your tourist dollars there right? Like, really, who cares if Cubans are dying for your right to a sunny, sandy vacation in the winter? Praise the lord (or at least the Sun God) and pass the mojito!
You accuse me of lacking character. At least I am consistent in my principles. I don't support torture. Period. And I would like our government to have a principled foreign policy that works towards ensuring that we do not support countries that do. I consider our policy on Cuba to be a D- effort. We engaged them but we forgot to mention that maybe we don't like it when Cubans disappear in the night.
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jade_lee
Active Member
What do you recommend our policy become? Do you really think the embargo in place by the United States changed a damn thing in Cuba.
BTW I read somewhere in this forum that you thought kids in Highschool here should not get their diplomas if they are over weight.......tell me do you think that shit up by yourself?
BTW I read somewhere in this forum that you thought kids in Highschool here should not get their diplomas if they are over weight.......tell me do you think that shit up by yourself?
Amphibius
Banned
But the same can be said of any other nation Canada regularly does trade with though. Just look ninety miles to the south of Cuba where countless gay Jamaicans struggle daily against the likelihood of verbal and physical assaults; escalating upto imprisonment, stonings, even death. I guess vacationing there instead inspite of all this is okay though because at least that country's an open democracy, unlike Cuba, right?
In my opinion we are not the morality police here, and sometimes numbing ourselves from the infinite suffering/injustices occuring around the world, even within our own backyard, is the best way to cope. And I don't think it's the personal duty or place of every tourist just trying to alleviate the stresses of their own lives to intervene as ambassadors on behalf of social justice or whatnot. We already have politicians and humanitarian aid NGOs for that.
kEiThZ
Superstar
I never advocated an American style embargo. I suggested that we do more to promote human rights. That means directing aid through our own efforts and NGOs instead of using the Cuban government. It means placing restrictions on regime members who are known to torture. Etc. There are many things we could do without putting in place a full embargo. Right now we do nothing. And it's even sadder that we are proud of it. Proud to be complacent about torture at one of our premier tourist destinations.
Stick to the threads. This comment has been responded to in the appropriate thread.
Nobody said we have to be the world's morality police. But what is wrong with having a more principled foreign policy. 2 decades ago that idea was supported by every political party in Canada. Indeed, Brian Mulroney made significant efforts to fight apartheid in South Africa. Today, we have Liberals who cry about human rights at home and then complain about not trading enough with China. And we have Conservatives who pick and choose which countries they want to have relationships with and then justify that countries HR record.
I am all for bringing back principles. None of it means that we have to slap on embargoes everywhere. But we should do what we as a small country can. It just like fighting climate change. You make a difference with what you got. Canada being more selective with the kind of trade we do with China would send a message that we care about human rights. Or maybe we can help dissidents in Cuba or gays in Jamaica by helping them advocate for change or at least speaking up when they get carted off to prison. I interact with diplomats regularly. I know how little of this they do. Not because they don't care. Many of them are quite passionate about this stuff. It's because our governments (both Liberal and Conservative) couldn't care less about putting in effort on these problems. The excuse is always the same. 'What can we do? We're a small country.' ' We don't want to be the world's police.' ' There's no room for morality in foreign affairs.' I'd like to think Canadians are better than that.
If we had this kind of an attitude during WWII, we wouldn't have taken any Jewish refugees in or work to free them....after all who are we to speak up about their rights?
jade_lee
Active Member
Picking "sides" is never helpful. Go look at the middle east if you want to see what picking sides does.
Before you shoot off you mouth about WW2 and jewish refugees you should look at the Canadian record and there you will see how many jewish orphans we rejected entry at that time, it is a stain on Canadian history for sure.
I often think of our rights here and the rights of other individuals around the globe.....hungry sick people could not care less about voting rights. It's all about context.
Before you shoot off you mouth about WW2 and jewish refugees you should look at the Canadian record and there you will see how many jewish orphans we rejected entry at that time, it is a stain on Canadian history for sure.
I often think of our rights here and the rights of other individuals around the globe.....hungry sick people could not care less about voting rights. It's all about context.
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W. K. Lis
Superstar
Cuba's motorists continue to use old American cars. They keep rebuilding them to run on and on.
With the current overstocked inventory of automobiles in the United States, shouldn't they at least consider selling some of them to Cuba? Not everyone in Cuba will be going after the Cadillacs, but maybe the less expensive models could end up there.
With the current overstocked inventory of automobiles in the United States, shouldn't they at least consider selling some of them to Cuba? Not everyone in Cuba will be going after the Cadillacs, but maybe the less expensive models could end up there.
kEiThZ
Superstar
So you would have preferred the Swiss approach while the Nazi's were pillaging Europe? Thankfully, our country has never been neutral on the great moral questions of our time.
Are you proud of that record? I certainly am not. Today we recognize that as a moral failing of Canadians of that era. I'd like to hope that we won't make the same mistake when it comes to countries that abuse human rights today.
You should tell that to the 730 million Indians who just voted two weeks ago. Or the Afghans who have nothing but brave threats of Taliban violence to turn at the polls at rates that should embarrass most Canadians. I assure you they are very proud of their democracy. Just because voting means nothing to you does not mean it does not mean anything to them. My barely literate 80 year old Indian grandmother who lived in poverty for a good part of her life was extremely proud of her voting rights and has exercised them at every opportunity since she was of age regardless of whether there was food to eat or if there was the threat of violence against voters. Yet, you would relegate people like her to second class citizens around the globe because they are supposed to have bigger concerns in your eyes? Shouldn't you let them have the choice? Who are you to make that decision for them?
And if you want an easy comparison look at India and Pakistan. Same history, virtually the same culture and very similar economic potential (Pakistan was actually wealthier at the time of independence). One is a vibrant democracy. The other has spent the better half of its young history as a military dictatorship. The democracy has seen a growing middle class and strong efforts at poverty reduction. The other has seen some of the greatest divisions of wealth in the region's history. Democracy can be an excellent anti-dote to economic disparities.
All that being said, I have never argued that we should be bringing democracy to the world. The argument I have made here is about advocating for basic human rights....habeas corpus would be a good start in the Cuban example.
AGTO
Banned
This was also the US approach, BTW.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Not quite....they did ship over a lot of arms.....and in the end that faux-neutrality gave them Pearl Harbour.
AGTO
Banned
Not quite, they allowed their allies to suffer for at least 2 years, before allowing themselves to be drawn into the war....I guess it depends on who wrote the history textbooks
Amphibius
Banned
I think Canada moreso than any other developed nation has been at the forefront of global peacekeeping and the pursuit of universal human rights. My point is that we (especially at the individual level) can only or rather should only do so much. Canadian society isn't at all perfect itself, and the time we're spending preoccupied with the world's suffering our own unemployment and poverty rates continue to escalate, nationwide infrastructure is badly in need of repair and renewal, taxation is imbalanced with the average Canadian seeing less returns, political stability is volatile at best and at no particular time can citizens ever feel certain and secure nowadays with which party will be leading us six months down the road.
Cuba's internal problems for all we know are nowhere as bad as "some poor sap getting tortured down the street as tourists frollick", which is what first alarmed me into speaking up here. The lack of cross-communication of media into their society though may present a false impression. Like most Caribbean nations the majority of the Cuban population is impoverished yes, bolstered on by the trade embargo which may result in older vehicles being the norm for transportation. However from the time I spent there, living with a local family in Havana for about a month some years back, I saw no visible signs of oppression. The people were smiling, jovial, often street-performing, everyone hustling to make a few pesos or luckily some USD. There was highway intrastructure in the capital resembling that of the Gardiner in downtown Toronto. There were high-rise buildings, aquariums and zoos. Their hospitals were very modernist as well and their doctors are world renown. Honestly it was as if I was in Europe, the way some parts looked with older Gothic artitecture and some cobbled streets in Old Habana, then a few kms over a totally different experience. When the time came up for me to leave, I seriously wanted to stay another week. And mind you, I wasn't staying in some fancy hotel resort on some far-removed pictureque beach. No, I had the real Cuban experience hanging out where the locals do and the lady we stayed with, an accredited pharmaceutist whose never left the island, only had nice things to say about the way-of-life there. As did her elderly parents, obviously around when the regime began in 1959.
In light of all this, I personally feel that America's approach to dealing with Cuba is all wrong. As a Political Science major I can tell you that isolating the regime from the greater community is the surest way for Cuban people to come to accept Communism as an absolute not worth publically dissenting against because they haven't been exposed to anything else. Hence severing the linkages that facilitate leverage. Instead, finding commonality with Cuba: opening up trade barriers; encouraging the free flow of immigration, tourism, expatriation of skilled workers, social networking; give Castro incentives to democratize (Carrot/Stick approach) either economic and security perks like investment, credit, treaties and/or memebership into NATO or the more highly controversial route of threatening trade, aid and security sanctions-- these are all proactive ways in which Canada can assist in the democratic transition of Cuba.
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kEiThZ
Superstar
^ Again, note that I have never advocated for trade embargoes. I find some of your points disturbing to say the least. You complain about how much there is to do at home. And then suggest that we should limit our involvement outside Canada. Surely as a poli sci major you should understand that countries do need to engage abroad from time to time to defend and promote their interests. Your philosophy has a much better name: isolationism. Taken to its logical conclusion we might as well stop peacekeeping and wrap up foreign aid as well. After all we do have tons of infrastructure that needs to be fixed at home and CIDA's 5 billion dollar budget could do wonders on that front.
Next, you equate your personal experience in Cuba as being typical and interpret the people as satisfied. Virtually every UN stat would disagree with your assertion. I have never said Cuba is a third world country. It is not. It wasn't before the revolution. And it wasn't after. It's what would be called in the old lexicon a second world country. Never dirt poor, but never materially well off enough to be a first world country. So they certainly have some ways to go when it comes to economic development. However, just because you lived with a solidly middle class family (pharmacists the world over are usually middle class) and saw some infrastructure (is there a country that does not have highways?) and good medical facilities (often short on medicine and often used to treat wealthy venezuelans first) does not mean that you had an objectively authentic Cuban experience. Ever give a thought to the vast majority of Cubans who don't reside in Havanna? What about their quality of life? And what about political freedoms? Did you seen any street protests when you were there? And what happens if they don't like how their government is performing. What recourse do they have?
When it comes to our relationship, you suggest that we should have a carrot and stick approach. I couldn't agree more. Please tell me what our stick is right now? The Canadian approach to Cuba varies between one of indifference to all carrot. We have never wielded a stick against Cuba to the best of my knowledge....or at least one big enough to be remembered. Can you tell me what changes our policies have brought about in Cuba? Sure the US approach is wrong. And that embargo has led to legitimization of the Castro regime. But Cuba's coddling by the rest of the world has done nothing but help Cuba escape the harshness of the American regime. We have given Castro the best of both worlds. He gets to continue railing at the US while getting a pass on the mismanagement of his country (Cuba has significant economic potential that could have been harnessed even with the embargo in place) and the oppression of his people (which apparently you seem to think we should not even bother addressing in the slightest lest we offend the sensitivities of the regime). I'd like to see that embargo lifted and replaced with severe sanctions against the regime and leadership of Cuba. Sure we'll trade with you. But you won't be skiing in Whistler any time soon.
Next, you equate your personal experience in Cuba as being typical and interpret the people as satisfied. Virtually every UN stat would disagree with your assertion. I have never said Cuba is a third world country. It is not. It wasn't before the revolution. And it wasn't after. It's what would be called in the old lexicon a second world country. Never dirt poor, but never materially well off enough to be a first world country. So they certainly have some ways to go when it comes to economic development. However, just because you lived with a solidly middle class family (pharmacists the world over are usually middle class) and saw some infrastructure (is there a country that does not have highways?) and good medical facilities (often short on medicine and often used to treat wealthy venezuelans first) does not mean that you had an objectively authentic Cuban experience. Ever give a thought to the vast majority of Cubans who don't reside in Havanna? What about their quality of life? And what about political freedoms? Did you seen any street protests when you were there? And what happens if they don't like how their government is performing. What recourse do they have?
When it comes to our relationship, you suggest that we should have a carrot and stick approach. I couldn't agree more. Please tell me what our stick is right now? The Canadian approach to Cuba varies between one of indifference to all carrot. We have never wielded a stick against Cuba to the best of my knowledge....or at least one big enough to be remembered. Can you tell me what changes our policies have brought about in Cuba? Sure the US approach is wrong. And that embargo has led to legitimization of the Castro regime. But Cuba's coddling by the rest of the world has done nothing but help Cuba escape the harshness of the American regime. We have given Castro the best of both worlds. He gets to continue railing at the US while getting a pass on the mismanagement of his country (Cuba has significant economic potential that could have been harnessed even with the embargo in place) and the oppression of his people (which apparently you seem to think we should not even bother addressing in the slightest lest we offend the sensitivities of the regime). I'd like to see that embargo lifted and replaced with severe sanctions against the regime and leadership of Cuba. Sure we'll trade with you. But you won't be skiing in Whistler any time soon.