Roads: Gardiner Expressway

[TKTKTK]

Ah, back in this thread, going back-and-forth with TKTKTK. Feels like old times.

*sigh*

It's an ugly underpass at this point, sure, but given that it's not all that wide I think there's a lot that could be done to make it more hospitable. There are underpasses of similar length all over the city and no one sees them as barriers.

For example?

I'm trying to think of an underpass as long, low, dark, and dank as these. Hell, we have sewers that are larger and more welcoming.

The Memorial Park Storage Chambers in Toronto's Belt Line Drain

(Of course, your counter-argument might be: Why don't we just beautify the underside of the Gardiner? To which I'll say this: Right now, we have the railroad tracks, the Gardiner and the Lake Shore, all of which are ugly and serve as barriers. Getting rid of the highway, improving the streetscape of the Lakeshore, and beautifying the underpass is the best workable solution in this section.)

Well, the best workable solution would be to improve the streetscape (far easier when you can push traffic volumes up out of the way) and beautify both the Gardiner and the Rail underpasses. But for some reason you want to reject that clear logic.

Of course, having said that, my support for this plan hinges almost exclusively on the Lake Shore proposal. If they're just going to cheap out and give us an at-grade highway with stop lights at every intersection, then why bother with this at all?

You honestly, honestly, honestly, believe it will turn out any differently than the above? Honestly? It's what they describe!

If you accept the lowest numbers for added trip length (what, 2 minutes?) then you also have to accept similar road speeds to what we have now, which is not appreciably slower than the Gardiner above.

If you want to accept slower speeds and a more pedestrian friendly environment, then you have to reject that 2 minute number and settle quite a bit higher (as it stands right now, each of the traffic-light cycles on Lake Shore are like 3-stages and 2 minutes long on their own! and good luck hitting all the greens)

 

[GraphicMatt]

For example?

I'm trying to think of an underpass as long, low, dark, and dank as these. Hell, we have sewers that are larger and more welcoming.

The Memorial Park Storage Chambers in Toronto's Belt Line Drain

Doing some quick measurements on Google Maps, it's about 50m long. That's hardly world-record length. (Now, Google Maps could be way off, but short of going down there with a metre stick, I wasn't sure how else to get the measurements.)

The darkness and the dankness are relatively easy to deal with in this instance with a little bit of money.

Well, the best workable solution would be to improve the streetscape (far easier when you can push traffic volumes up out of the way) and beautify both the Gardiner and the Rail underpasses. But for some reason you want to reject that clear logic.

Traffic volume in this section is nowhere near as high as the rest of the stretch of the highway, remember. And maybe our fundamental difference on this issue is that, no matter how many pictures of highway undersides you show me from Japan or wherever, I just don't see how you could make the underside of the Gardiner more hospitable.

You honestly, honestly, honestly, believe it will turn out any differently than the above? Honestly? It's what they describe!

If you accept the lowest numbers for added trip length (what, 2 minutes?) then you also have to accept similar road speeds to what we have now, which is not appreciably slower than the Gardiner above.

If you want to accept slower speeds and a more pedestrian friendly environment, then you have to reject that 2 minute number and settle quite a bit higher (as it stands right now, each of the traffic-light cycles on Lake Shore are like 3-stages and 2 minutes long on their own! and good luck hitting all the greens)

Well, first of all, I'd be okay with slower speeds in this section. And I say that as an east-sider who uses this section of the highway regularly.

Second, the original aim was to have a "grand boulevard" similar to University Ave in place at the Lake Shore. If they can't deliver on that, then to hell with them. But I think it's absolutely worth hoping for.

 

[TKTKTK]

Doing some quick measurements on Google Maps, it's about 50m long. That's hardly world-record length. (Now, Google Maps could be way off, but short of going down there with a metre stick, I wasn't sure how else to get the measurements.)

I think the pictures speak very clearly to the experience of walking through those underpasses.

But if you want to talk numbers, the width of the Gardiner and the width of the railtracks and their right-of-way is about equal at Parliament, though the tracks are much wider at Cherry.

The darkness and the dankness are relatively easy to deal with in this instance with a little bit of money.

Just as the perception that the Gardiner is a barrier can be dealt with by spending a little bit of money. I still maintain (from pages and eons ago) that most people identify the Gardiner as the barrier, when really they're stopped by the railllands.

Traffic volume in this section is nowhere near as high as the rest of the stretch of the highway, remember.

Every other stretch of every other highway is in near gridlock for good portions of the day. That this section isn't beyond capacity doesn't mean it's a candidate for removal. The traffic volume here is still more than Lake Shore can handle in its current configuration (I don't know what page we hashed that out on), which seems like a more fundamental measure than whether it's as busy as the 401 and Yonge.

And maybe our fundamental difference on this issue is that, no matter how many pictures of highway undersides you show me from Japan or wherever, I just don't see how you could make the underside of the Gardiner more hospitable.

Well, how did you imagine it happening under the tracks? You have far less room to work with there than you have under the Gardiner...

I don't mean that as an antagonizing question - I'm genuinely curious...to my mind, the Gardiner offers far more opportunities for awesomefication than do the rail corridors.

Well, first of all, I'd be okay with slower speeds in this section. And I say that as an east-sider who uses this section of the highway regularly.

Second, the original aim was to have a "grand boulevard" similar to University Ave in place at the Lake Shore. If they can't deliver on that, then to hell with them. But I think it's absolutely worth hoping for.

How are they going to deliver on that when the buildings along its length already shake their asses at it? Imagine what University would be like with only one building facing it (in this case Air Canada Centre), all the rest of its length was wall after wall of blank EIFS or parking garages. Imagine a University Avenue with one side of it taken up by a rail corridor that terminates, not with a view to Queen's Park, but with a view to the Sunlight Factory (poetic, yes, but...lacking)

 

[AKS]

Well, how did you imagine it happening under the tracks? You have far less room to work with there than you have under the Gardiner...

I don't mean that as an antagonizing question - I'm genuinely curious...to my mind, the Gardiner offers far more opportunities for awesomefication than do the rail corridors.

I don't suppose you've seen the Union revitalization presentation? The railways are integrating with the city very well there. I'm quite excited to see how the whole area will turn out. The area might even turn out like a shinjuku.

Also with the skywalk (convention center area), you can easily walk over the railway. Or there are under pass paths going across. (Yonge, York, Simcoe). From skydome area, there's a bridge going over it. The railway doesn't bother me at all. However trying to get past the gardiner to lakeshore isn't so pedestrian friendly. There's ramps going on and off all the time. It's quite dreary to walk under it. At least with the railway, you walk over it on bridges or under it in enclosed pathways.

 

[TKTKTK]

I don't suppose you've seen the Union revitalization presentation? The railways are integrating with the city very well there. I'm quite excited to see how the whole area will turn out. The area might even turn out like a shinjuku.

Also with the skywalk (convention center area), you can easily walk over the railway. Or there are under pass paths going across. (Yonge, York, Simcoe). From skydome area, there's a bridge going over it. The railway doesn't bother me at all. However trying to get past the gardiner to lakeshore isn't so pedestrian friendly. There's ramps going on and off all the time. It's quite dreary to walk under it. At least with the railway, you walk over it on bridges or under it in enclosed pathways.

What is it, do you think, that makes the Gardiner more dreary than, say, the underpass at Parliament? Is it the increased height? The airiness? The natural light?

I have to say though, if you find Lake Shore unpleasant to cross now just wait until it's even wider and busier. Oh, but there'll be some shrubs then, and some subdivision-grade maple saplings. You'll be able to relax on the median between light cycles, listening to the chirping (even if it's only coming from the cross-walk)

I don't support doing nothing, I should make that clear again. I think the Gardiner needs some love, but not a teardown.

 

[waterloowarrior]

reposting this...

Public Meeting on Term of Referenced for the EA on the Gardiner.

#1 Public Form
Saturday, March 28, 2009
Trident Banquet Hall and Confrence Centre
145 Evans Avenue, Etobicoke
11:00 am to 1:00 pm (Open House)
1:00 pm to 3:00 pm (Presentation)

Monday, March 30, 2009
Scarborough Civic Centre
150 Borough Drive, Scarborough
5:00 pm to 7:00 pm (Open House)
7:00 pm to 9:00 pm (Presentation)

Thursday, April 2, 2009
Harbourfront Community Centre-Gymnasium
627 Queens Quay West, Toronto
5:00 pm to 7:00 pm (Open House)
7:00 pm to 9:00 pm (Presentation)

Saturday, April 4, 2009
North York Memorial Hall-Burgundy Room
5110, Yonge Street, Toronto
10:00 am to 12:00 pm (Open House)
12:00 pm to 2:00 pm (Presentation)

ToR to City Executive June
ToR to Council July
TOR to MOE Sept
Decision of MOE Dec

 

[AKS]

If you've tried to walk down Spadina from bremner to lakeshore you will know what I mean. West side of Spadina has no traffic light to let you cross. Only way is to jay walk and be careful you don't get hit. Somewhat safer route is to cross from East side. When walk down the east side, there's no traffic light. You have to be careful of the cars coming at you (I think its off ramp). After jay walking past that, you'll finally get a traffic light. Around the area it's really dirty and dusty. And during rainy days, cars driving by will splash you with dirty water or get dripped water from above the gardiner. If there was enclosed path or something at least it's cleaner. It feels like I'm walking past a ghetto area every time I pass the gardiner.

I've crossed the gardiner from Yonge and I guess that wasn't as bad. At least there's traffic lights but York was pretty dirty and dusty too and same issue with wet days.

Also the condos are being built close and closer to the gardiner. One day we may end up like this.

Also there's photos taken of the gardiner. It seems to be rusting away. Even the screws look like they're rotting from age.

Robert Fung suggested tearing it down to make the waterfront more inviting. However I have yet to see a plan to integrate the gardiner, that would beautify it with all the ramps and all. If someone has a good plan to make it look nice and fit well with the waterfront, then by all means keep the gardiner. The only other solution I've heard about is to bury the gardiner like the other cities buried their highway. If the other cities thought they could make it look nice, they wouldn't have needed to resort to burying it. Hence I don't believe Toronto can come up with a spectacular idea that no one has thought of before to make it look nice and integrate well.

 

[kEiThZ]

I'm not against long-term planning that involves building rail infrastructure while removing road capacity, but I do think if we get into a habit of saying "We can't do this until X happens" we will, in essence, be waiting forever.

The problem in this town is that the same argument can easily be applied the other way. So they take down the Gardiner. And all of a sudden the government changes direction and adequate transit is held off for another decade. Now you've screwed the northern and eastern GTA of a valuable link. I for one am sick of the city constantly giving the short-end of the stick to easterners when it comes to transportation resources. No extension of the Bloor-Danforth line. No extension of the SRT for over a decade and a half now. Truncation of the Sheppard line short of Scarborough. No GO service to a good chunk of North Eastern Toronto. And now apparently despite all that, we'll take down a valuable road link with the justification that if we don't do it now it we'll be waiting forever....something like how Scarborough has been waiting for good transit forever.

From my perspective, the absolute minimum that should occur to justify taking down the eastern Gardiner are all the 'Quick Win' projects listed for the northern and eastern GTA (and maybe even a good chunk of the Metrolinx 15 year plan). At that point, perhaps the alternatives will be somewhat adequately developed that we can start dismantling the Gardiner. Before then, this will merely be a concerted effort to antagonize east end commuters trying to access the core.

 

[TKTKTK]

If you've tried to walk down Spadina from bremner to lakeshore you will know what I mean. West side of Spadina has no traffic light to let you cross. Only way is to jay walk and be careful you don't get hit. Somewhat safer route is to cross from East side. When walk down the east side, there's no traffic light. You have to be careful of the cars coming at you (I think its off ramp). After jay walking past that, you'll finally get a traffic light. Around the area it's really dirty and dusty. And during rainy days, cars driving by will splash you with dirty water or get dripped water from above the gardiner. If there was enclosed path or something at least it's cleaner. It feels like I'm walking past a ghetto area every time I pass the gardiner.

it feeling like a ghetto has a lot to do with what the area's been for the last 90 years. Toronto's harbour is a working one, that whole area has been industrial since it was filled in. That it looks dusty and dirty is natural. But just like we've done with other parts of the harbourfront, we need to clean it up and actively seek to make it beautiful. It's not going to happen spontaneously on its own - and it hardly seems fair to fault the Gardiner for our neglect.

I've crossed the gardiner from Yonge and I guess that wasn't as bad. At least there's traffic lights but York was pretty dirty and dusty too and same issue with wet days.

Lake Shore is a dream in the rain, but they need to fix the leaking drain pipes from the Gardiner above. Otherwise, cars splashing you as they go by will happen on any street in the rain, and will still happen if you remove the Gardiner

Also the condos are being built close and closer to the gardiner. One day we may end up like this.

The road came after the building. It's unlikely that we'll see a repeat of that here.

Also there's photos taken of the gardiner. It seems to be rusting away. Even the screws look like they're rotting from age.

Well then they must be.

Robert Fung suggested tearing it down to make the waterfront more inviting. However I have yet to see a plan to integrate the gardiner, that would beautify it with all the ramps and all. If someone has a good plan to make it look nice and fit well with the waterfront, then by all means keep the gardiner. The only other solution I've heard about is to bury the gardiner like the other cities buried their highway. If the other cities thought they could make it look nice, they wouldn't have needed to resort to burying it. Hence I don't believe Toronto can come up with a spectacular idea that no one has thought of before to make it look nice and integrate well.

The ramps are a problem, absolutely, but they're not insurmountable. It's been suggested on here countless times that adjusting the ramps so they're not starting and stopping at intersections might help with pedestrian movement. We could also add signals to restrict the flow of traffic onto the ramps to allow pedestrians to go by. Just because a simple solution like the latter isn't implemented already, doesn't mean it can't be. Sure, it'll slow down access to the Gardiner, but not more than completely tearing it down.

 

[Chuck]

I must have said this ages ago, but why not replace the Gardiner with two completely separate one way streets? In terms of traffic flow, volume is optimized using a combination of one way streets and properly synchronized traffic signals. In terms of urban context, each street would only be 4 or 5 lanes wide, narrow enough to feel urban and allow for urban development to occur, and could accommodate street parking during non peak hours.

One way streets do NOT by definition create a pedestrian hostile, highway like environment, however suburban style development on said streets do.

 

[TKTKTK]

I wonder if you could apply to protect the DVP Southbound to Gardiner Westbound as a scenic route. On late summer evenings with light traffic, it's a beautiful way to see the city.

 

[Second_in_pie]

I wonder if you could apply to protect the DVP Southbound to Gardiner Westbound as a scenic route. On late summer evenings with light traffic, it's a beautiful way to see the city.

I have to admit, I'd rather watch the sunset from the waterfront and look up to the city from there, a view that many argue is ruined by the Gardener. I agree though, that view is rather beautiful

I know it's necessary, but I'd prefer it if they didn't have to make lakeshore a superstreet. I suppose they would design it to be pedestrian-friendly and at least pretty, but it'd certainly be showing change if we tore down the gardener and didn't have to change any other roads at all, wouldn't it!

 

[drum118]

Regardless if the Gardiner stays up or not, you will not see the waterfront with all the condo's in the way.

There should be ""NO"" new building within 100 m of the water edge with transit/bike/predestines and the QQ being next.

You slop the condo's up as you move toward the rail corridor with tall towers to the north.

The Lake Shore/Gardiner will be between the rail corridor to the north and Condo City to the south.

If the waterfront is to be Public domain, then lets do it.

Go to Burlington and see an example of this.

The rail embankment needs to be green space, not what there now.

As a ""NOTE:""

The Public will get their final chance to see, hear and say what will be taking
place for the Queens Quay Revitalization EA, East Bay LRT and rebuilding Union Station Loop.

High Overview of all 3 project will take place Thursday March 25, 2009 at Westin Harbour Centre starting at 6:00 pm.

One on one with staff meeting will take Place Saturday March 28 at the Westin Harbour Centre 10:00 am to 1:00 pm as a drop in.

Full detail plan for the full section will be on display for the 3 move forward
options, how to service the area and Tour Bus Locations. Lots of boards will be on display.

No official prefer option is going forth at this time other than Transit will be
on the south side and 3 lanes of traffic on the north side.

The prefer option call for traffic in both direction as single lane. Transit LOS
is a D for this option. Other than traffic future needs, there is no different
between one way street or both direction. The LOS for transit as one way is a B.

York St and Lower Simcoe stops will be combine and be located between the 2 stops mid block

Spadina intersection will be rebuilt 100% with transit and traffic doing a
crossover just to the west of it. Transit will be where eastbound lane is now and traffic will be where transit is on the west side..

9 new north south streets will be built between Bathurst St and Parliament
connecting the QQ to either Harbour St or the Lake Shore. One new road will be where Spadina Loop is as well one where the Firehall/EMS is.

158 new on street parking spots will be added.

A new portal between Yonge and Freeland as well a loop just west of Parliament St. A east bound lane for traffic between Bay and Yonge to service Westin.

The Saturday will be a busy day with all the events taking place that day.

The 3 EA's go to TTC in April for approval and then to Council in July.

Work will get underway late 2010 or early 2011.

The waterfront will be a mess for the next few years not only with these
projects, but the building of the Cherry St N line in 2011 and rebuilding of
Bathurst St bridge in 2010/11.

A preview of what is going to happen to Cherry St may take place this summer.

The Shelters for Cherry St will be custom made, not the current ones.

 

[AKS]

it feeling like a ghetto has a lot to do with what the area's been for the last 90 years. Toronto's harbour is a working one, that whole area has been industrial since it was filled in. That it looks dusty and dirty is natural. But just like we've done with other parts of the harbourfront, we need to clean it up and actively seek to make it beautiful. It's not going to happen spontaneously on its own - and it hardly seems fair to fault the Gardiner for our neglect.

The highway has been there since 1955. They could have cleaned it up when they built it. Instead they just plopped it on and did nothing. After 54 years and they did nothing, they either didn't care or have no solution.

Lake Shore is a dream in the rain, but they need to fix the leaking drain pipes from the Gardiner above. Otherwise, cars splashing you as they go by will happen on any street in the rain, and will still happen if you remove the Gardiner

After they revitalize it and add better/more drainage, that should avoid the problem.

The road came after the building. It's unlikely that we'll see a repeat of that here.

If you didn't notice some of the posts on the forum. It's already happening. Someone condo at parklane or something, you could almost touch it as you drive by. Panorama looks pretty intimate too and I think probably another one. Also the city is suggesting to sell the land at 60 harbour street for builders to build a condo. The plot of land is small. The 3D design someone did showed how close the podium would touch the gardiner.

The ramps are a problem, absolutely, but they're not insurmountable. It's been suggested on here countless times that adjusting the ramps so they're not starting and stopping at intersections might help with pedestrian movement. We could also add signals to restrict the flow of traffic onto the ramps to allow pedestrians to go by. Just because a simple solution like the latter isn't implemented already, doesn't mean it can't be. Sure, it'll slow down access to the Gardiner, but not more than completely tearing it down.

I don't think even traffic lights would help. I was just walking at lower jarvis yesterday. My feeling of crossing it was "run run run before the traffic light turns." There were so many lanes. There was a kind of lane division area for pedestrians to stop and wait I suppose if they didn't make it across. But I had to pass 4 of those before I reached the other end. Imagine if some granny whose slow had to cross that. I think 3 lanes for left traffic, 3 lanes for right and some on and off lanes too? Not sure. I was too busy running to even care.

As for moving the off ramps off intersections, I don't know if there's space. But if they can do it without causing a traffic accident, go ahead. But unless they manage to somehow hide the gardiner from view somewhat, it wouldn't look good still. And it would cost a lot to beautify it too, with all the rusting and such. At least the train tracks they're trying to cover it with green roofs. I think over time, the whole or most of the train area may get covered with a green roof. I would like to see them attempt to cover the gardiner with a green roof That would be the only way to let the gardiner stay. They would need a really long green roof/bridge so people can cross at will.

I agree 11 lanes of traffic would kill to walk through. However, they could build bridges to go over them. That might solve the problem. Paths under it is not feasible. I hated crossing salisbury road in HK at TST. The best area to cross is Nathan Road because there's traffic light. The next intersection east of that is a "subway" or under pass for pedestrian. I had a hard time looking for it. If it was a bridge it would be easier to see. It is kind of scary at night to walk through too because I didn't see many people in it. It was ghetto.

 

[adma]

The highway has been there since 1955. They could have cleaned it up when they built it. Instead they just plopped it on and did nothing. After 54 years and they did nothing, they either didn't care or have no solution.

Technically, the highway was only started in 1955. And the "industrial" sections (i.e. from Dufferin eastward) weren't finished until the 1960s...