Toronto King-Liberty GO Station | 21.39m | 3s | Metrolinx | WSP

[UrbanAffair]

An extremely funny response given that we are in one of the most cost-effective construction environments in a decade (or more). Unless you just love getting rinsed by your friends in favourable, sometimes no-alternate-bid contracts, that is.

Anyone actually tendering work right now is sometimes holding off on signing contracts because the price they might get next week is lower than the one they'd sign today. CMs, constructors, unions, specialists, etc. are all bleeding and are desperately trying to sign anything just to keep the lights on. But I'm sure Marija knows that...

Interesting about construction labour costs. Are you seeing lower cost to build overall? (Or at least with hard costs generally being lower?) I see Altus Cost Guide is saying as much, suggesting decreasing cost to build overall from 2024 to 2025.

 

[ProjectEnd]

Interesting about construction labour costs. Are you seeing lower cost to build overall? (Or at least with hard costs generally being lower?) I see Altus Cost Guide is saying as much, suggesting decreasing cost to build overall from 2024 to 2025.

Significantly. But we're still not at the floor, hence some folks still holding off. *Except* Metrolinx, obviously...

 

[crs1026]

Unlike commercial projects where one needs to be sure there will be buyers when the project is complete, with transit the demand is already there and deferring contracts imposes an opportunity cost on those who are waiting for the line to open.
So personally I am content with ML accepting today's price and getting on with things.

Lansdowne and Caledonia are going to make a big difference on mobility.

- Paul

 

[ProjectEnd]

I disagree.

I think it's embarrassing that the government (at all levels) can't, at times, act like private industry and work to a competitive price and schedule. Not to be a 'taxpayer' guy, but it really is our money and what I want most of all is to see the government internalize work (not contract out) and build expertise to lower costs and accelerate schedules on their own. Whether it's Metrolinx, ALTO, Build Canada Homes, etc. etc. etc., there is absolutely no culture of accomplishment and the folks these agencies have hired have little to no interest (or even understanding) of their mandate or what a reasonable cost and time of delivery might be. The way trust in government and implicit support of things like taxation is earned is through completed work. You wouldn't buy a car or a house from a brand you knew was unreliable or consistently late, so why can the government get away with cucking the rest of us? Regan and Thatcherist privatization drives were novel (and ideologically bankrupt) 40 years ago but I currently see no desire to escape the trap of paying double so that a private sector glutton can profit.

It sucks, really, because it didn't used to be this way and it doesn't have to be going forward.

 

[UtakataNoAnnex]

...there's always a degree of accountability that is lost when government allows for private interests to take over the things they should be working out for themselves and/or running themselves, IMO.

 

[Towered]

I disagree.

I think it's embarrassing that the government (at all levels) can't, at times, act like private industry and work to a competitive price and schedule. Not to be a 'taxpayer' guy, but it really is our money and what I want most of all is to see the government internalize work (not contract out) and build expertise to lower costs and accelerate schedules on their own. Whether it's Metrolinx, ALTO, Build Canada Homes, etc. etc. etc., there is absolutely no culture of accomplishment and the folks these agencies have hired have little to no interest (or even understanding) of their mandate or what a reasonable cost and time of delivery might be. The way trust in government and implicit support of things like taxation is earned is through completed work. You wouldn't buy a car or a house from a brand you knew was unreliable or consistently late, so why can the government get away with cucking the rest of us? Regan and Thatcherist privatization drives were novel (and ideologically bankrupt) 40 years ago but I currently see no desire to escape the trap of paying double so that a private sector glutton can profit.

It sucks, really, because it didn't used to be this way and it doesn't have to be going forward.

It all comes down to accountability. If any of the players with actual input could be threatened to lose their cushy position as a consequence of poor performance and timely project delivery, the culture would change real fast.

 

[JoeSchmo]

Found out some stuff about early works construction from a relative. They hired out some firms to rearrange some communications infrastructure to prep for construction + adoption of European standard signaling. He's been on site for a bit I think so at least something is being done. Thing is they're bogged down like crazy in safety paperwork to do literally anything so it gets dragged out like crazy. He also worked on lines 5 and 6.

 

[christiesplits]

From another thread, @Northern Light discussed the cost overruns of King-Liberty GO station:

Yes, but ....the 400M per station is significantly higher than the real cost per station for the caverns on the TYSSE.

The 500M for Liberty GO......to be charitable is NOT a believable number, I have no clue what Mx imagines spending that money on, but that is in no way a reasonable cost for an above-ground commuter rail station w/no train shed.

Italy can deliver underground Metro stations for less than 150M CAD as of 2023.

Above ground for substantially less.

Boston is cheaper too, a lot.

I just think Mx is out to lunch......150M for a 2km bike path.........

The answer is not to accept Mx numbers and to dismantle the organization if they can't learn to deliver projects at global peer costs.

Here is what the city's SmartTrack website says regarding the deferral of Finch-Kennedy and King-Liberty GO stations:

"Market conditions within the construction sector have changed considerably since the initial budget for the SmartTrack Stations Program was developed. Across the industry, prices have increased because of rising material, labour and supply chain costs. As a result, design work for Finch-Kennedy and King-Liberty GO Stations is paused until sufficient intergovernmental funding is secured for their delivery."

Is this an issue of market conditions, procurement issues, Metrolinx incompetence, or something else?

 

[Northern Light]

From another thread, @Northern Light discussed the cost overruns of King-Liberty GO station:



Here is what the city's SmartTrack website says regarding the deferral of Finch-Kennedy and King-Liberty GO stations:



Is this an issue of market conditions,

No.

procurement issues

Partially

, Metrolinx incompetence

Partially

, or something else?

This.

****

To put this another way, it would be my......'hypothesis' that if they put the stations they have rendered to tender with no other projects buried in the details, they should come in, in an honest, competitive tender, well within (err, cough, below) the stated budget.

 

[crs1026]

Found out some stuff about early works construction from a relative. They hired out some firms to rearrange some communications infrastructure to prep for construction + adoption of European standard signaling. He's been on site for a bit I think so at least something is being done. Thing is they're bogged down like crazy in safety paperwork to do literally anything so it gets dragged out like crazy. He also worked on lines 5 and 6.

The work is indeed progressing with crews on site regularly and lots of evidence of conduits being installed, excavations happening and then being closed up, etc. Lots of reason to conclude that this work is getting done.
The “safety paperwork” may simply be a contractor that hasn ‘t done railway work before discovering the added technical and regulatory requirements for installing infra along a railway line.
The work site is pretty well separated and guarded to keep trains out of the way, but there may be interfaces, and we know ML is fundamentally glacial in its workings.
I wouldn’t conclude that the telco work - while perhaps overdue - is a barrier to getting this station built.

- Paul

 

[FormerTorontonianBackInTO]

The work is indeed progressing with crews on site regularly and lots of evidence of conduits being installed, excavations happening and then being closed up, etc. Lots of reason to conclude that this work is getting done.
The “safety paperwork” may simply be a contractor that hasn ‘t done railway work before discovering the added technical and regulatory requirements for installing infra along a railway line.
The work site is pretty well separated and guarded to keep trains out of the way, but there may be interfaces, and we know ML is fundamentally glacial in its workings.
I wouldn’t conclude that the telco work - while perhaps overdue - is a barrier to getting this station built.

- Paul

Is there any chance that the work has begun (and will continue), despite the earlier funding problems, because this has something do with the funds that the federal government is putting toward general GO transit expansion (the $8.8 billion announcement from March 2026)?

Also, presuming that work has begun (and will continue), would announcements about a transit oriented residential development on this site (after the station is built, on the lands expropriated at 99 Sudbury) be coming from the city (as this was supposed to be a city project) or would it still be the Province (as that is who is leading work on the Ontario Line sites, even if submitting to the city)

 

[innsertnamehere]

IIRC the utility infrastructure work was tendered separately and in advance and isn't a signifier of the wider project proceeding.

 

[Ward8]

The “safety paperwork” may simply be a contractor that hasn ‘t done railway work before discovering the added technical and regulatory requirements for installing infra along a railway line.

It could also relate, not to the literal volume of paperwork, but the slow correspondence of Metrolinx. Which I think you allude to. Something akin to the electrification situation with DB.