6ixGod
Active Member
You’re most welcomed to block me. I’m not concerned at all. Thank you.
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lastcommodore
New Member
I agree, but to give a more nuanced reply, its hard to see how a thread dedicated to this thing will go much way else. Its still all so speculatory because we know so little about how it will operate.
I hope when it opens we get to get some train spotters, anecdotal cases where it helped, etc. in the thread... but "Everything's ok" rarely hits the news. I for one have mostly avoided replying to this thread because I try (emphasis) not to comment when I cannot add.
Positivity comment: I think my favourite parts of this line will be the elevated segments, and I look forward to being able to explore the north side of Toronto with fam who refuse to enter a public vehicle without steel tires.
duty free
Active Member
They'll rebuild the at grade portion of Line 5. I think that's inevitable because of the bunching that the surface portion will create. The 10km of tunnel followed by 9 km of at street grade ROW was ill-conceived. A horrible idea really.
Line 6 who knows? The corridor doesn't really warrant a full grade separated light metro or subway in 2026. Either Line 4 goes up to Finch and it eventually replaces Line 6 like the Scarborough Line 2 extension replaced Line 3, or they'll just let it degrade over the next 30 years and replace it with a BRT. It probably should've just been a BRT to begin with.
T3G
Senior Member
There is no one on the planet currently alive who will still be alive when/if any fundamental changes are made to the infrastructure of the east end of the line.
How many times does it need to be explained on this forum that bunching will not occur on the surface section? Do you guys think the subway runs at uniform speeds all along its routes, or something?
Eglinton Line 5 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis
After seeing a post yesterday of all the unfinished pieces on Line 6's opening day, it doesn't give me great confidence in Eglinton. Many are cosmetic pieces, but a couple made me wince. And yet, as an Eglinton resident I still envy the people who have it to ride. A lot can be forgiven once a...
Bunching is physically impossible if every single train is subject to the same operational conditions. The only physical way it would be possible for this bunching boogieman to come true is if every other train was not subject to speed limits or operating rules, which we all know isn't going to happen. Please stop flogging this dead horse. If TSP isn't implemented, there will be other issues with the surface section, but not this particular one.
afransen
Senior Member
More likely we will eventually build a true crosstown line on a different right of way.
urbanclient
Active Member
Bunching is theoretically not possible only if each train is subject to the same conditions. But in reality, each train is not subject to the same.How many times does it need to be explained on this forum that bunching will not occur on the surface section? Do you guys think the subway runs at uniform speeds all along its routes, or something?
Eglinton Line 5 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis
After seeing a post yesterday of all the unfinished pieces on Line 6's opening day, it doesn't give me great confidence in Eglinton. Many are cosmetic pieces, but a couple made me wince. And yet, as an Eglinton resident I still envy the people who have it to ride. A lot can be forgiven once a...urbantoronto.ca
Bunching is physically impossible if every single train is subject to the same operational conditions. The only physical way it would be possible for this bunching boogieman to come true is if every other train was not subject to speed limits or operating rules, which we all know isn't going to happen. Please stop flogging this dead horse. If TSP isn't implemented, there will be other issues with the surface section, but not this particular one.
They will have slightly different dwell times and be delayed by traffic lights for slightly different durations. This issue can be remedied by schedule recovery mode under automatic train operation i.e. under normal conditions the train runs slightly slower than max operating speed; then when delayed, will run at a higher speed to catch-up. This is partly why Vancouver's Skytrain has such a high on-time rate and can avoid cascading delays.
But Line 5 and 6 do not have ATO on the surface. The acceleration and deceleration will be subject to driver variability.
The surface section of Line 5 is not appreciably different from Line 6. I can say from first hand experience that Line 6 has bunching issues. I have personally seen, two trains within two stations apart, sometimes only one station apart. I can post a video if you want for proof.
Line 5's opening was delayed, in part to speed up operations and implement stronger TSP. Theoretically, stronger TSP should help reduce bunching by reducing red light delays and making them more consistent. But it likely won't eliminate bunching caused by excess dwell times and driver variability. Excess dwell times for example, due to boarding & alighting of less mobile passengers or just high passenger traffic at one stop. I've been one of the biggest proponents of strong TSP over simply "driving it faster" (up to 12 minutes wasted due to red lights), and even I know TSP is not a panacea.
Line 6 uses SelTrac CBTC and still has bunching. It's not like Line 5's Cityflo 650 CBTC is going to be any better in practice for preventing bunching when the trains are manually operated on the surface.
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T3G
Senior Member
I mean, sure, you might get the odd slowpoke driver, but that's not going to be an appreciable factor. If it was going to be, we would have seen this on any other line with manual operations. Both subway lines, pre-ATC, were also operated manually, with varying station dwell times, segments with faster and slower top speeds, and drivers who had different driving styles, but it wasn't a common thing to see bunching anywhere - even at entrances to slow zones - except at the terminal stations, which were/are incapable of turning trains around as efficiently as the line frequencies call for.
As for delays at traffic lights for slightly different durations, sure, not every car is going to be delayed for exactly the same amount of time, but this applies to all cars and at all intersections. If one car gets held for a minute at Victoria Park and the next one for 30 seconds, they then might be held for 30 seconds and 1 minute respectively at Victoria Park, or any other number of different light/dwell time combos. It should all average out.
I believe you, but there's no reason this should be happening with a top frequency of 6 minutes - and especially not when there is no underground portion with higher top speeds, as has been commonly feared on here. I can only assume that either what you saw was residual delays from a service disruption, or another halfwitted operating procedure. That could easily be the case, on opening day I would have trains that serviced some of the stations for a full 1-2 minutes, for whatever reason. There's nothing in the physical design of either line that should cause this, at all.
nfitz
Superstar
duty free
Active Member
You're clairvoyant? Probably not, so who knows what the future holds.There is no one on the planet currently alive who will still be alive when/if any fundamental changes are made to the infrastructure of the east end of the line.
How many times does it need to be explained on this forum that bunching will not occur on the surface section? Do you guys think the subway runs at uniform speeds all along its routes, or something?
Eglinton Line 5 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis
After seeing a post yesterday of all the unfinished pieces on Line 6's opening day, it doesn't give me great confidence in Eglinton. Many are cosmetic pieces, but a couple made me wince. And yet, as an Eglinton resident I still envy the people who have it to ride. A lot can be forgiven once a...
Bunching is physically impossible if every single train is subject to the same operational conditions. The only physical way it would be possible for this bunching boogieman to come true is if every other train was not subject to speed limits or operating rules, which we all know isn't going to happen. Please stop flogging this dead horse. If TSP isn't implemented, there will be other issues with the surface section, but not this particular one.
Bunching is irrelevant ultimately. TSP is also irrelevant unfortunately in the grand scheme.
There is one massive issue that will constantly prevent surface transit from being optimized in Toronto and that is political will.
The motivation from politicians, business owners along surface routes and the constituents they serve are on mass opposed to any street level trams and certainly opposed to optimizing them in any way (ROWs, eliminating street parking). What's even worse though are the transit enthusiasts who also oppose optimizing streetcars or LRT's either. They don't want any streetcar stops eliminated because it might be "their" stop. There's probably 3 times too many streetcar stops that currently exist in Toronto. The whole thing is a comedy of errors.
There's no magic bullet that will make trams in Toronto run like trams in Europe. The political motivation is simply non existent here. Non existent! People like us who are urbanist and passionate about transit are part of an extreme minority of the population who live here. We make up far less than 1% of the total populace. You're talking about a multi-generational cultural shift to even get them to run semi optimally and that is truly something you will never live to see happen.
I hope I'm wrong, but you unfortunately you haven't added anything to dispel my concerns. How are you going to change the mentality of the masses and political will? You're not or maybe you will, who knows I'm not clairvoyant, but you might be. Break it down for us.
Thanks!
urbanclient
Active Member
That is wishful thinking, really. The long-term average might be relatively consistent for similar parts of the day, but the variability between each single trip is likely to be statistically significant. I could drive the Line 6 route right now and do the same trip 60 minutes later after doubling back and easily get a different time by 1-2 minutes.
Without an official service alert I have seen many a time where two opposite direction Line 1 trains arrive and depart my station before even one Line 1 train in my direction arrives. Even with automatic train control headway variance is not an uncommon thing. Consider that ~15% of Line 1 trains exceed the scheduled headway by 1.5 times. That translates to a delay of at least 75 sec for 2.5 min headways, or at least 2.5 min for 5 min headways. For a surface tram, even one with strong TSP by the likes of Paris T9, bunching is still a real possibility. Dwell times are often longer and less consistent than metros due to bottlenecked boarding and alighting inherent in tram design.
It's widely accepted that metros, especially semi-automated and automated ones, are less prone to bunching than less grade separated, less automated surface transit modes. Any delay on one tram is more likely to lead to more delays down the line than the same duration delay on an automated metro. In practice, manually operated transit is prone to cascading delays as human operators are imperfect and cannot consistently dampen delays like an automated system can (if programmed properly like Vancouver).
In theory, without adverse conditions, breakdowns or accidents, there should be no traffic jams on highways, and yet we all know phantom traffic jams happen. A driver following at a longer distance, who is smooth on the brakes can dampen the effects of a phantom traffic jam; but this effort may be for naught if the next driver following them decides to tailgate and slam on the brakes.
Any delay in the 1st train should prompt the 2nd train to slow down an equal amount to compensate, and then this theoretically should prompt the 3rd train to delay its departure from the terminus by that amount as well. But that often does not happen as terminus schedule adherence is often followed, barring exceptionally bad bunching or incidents. So hypothetically even if terminus schedule adherence is 15%, the bunching in the middle of the line could be 17% in reality. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m74zazYPwkY
I agree, there is no good reason this should be happening. And yet it does. And yet phantom traffic jams happen. Theory will only take you so far.
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T3G
Senior Member
I didn't negate the existence of bunching, anywhere, for any reason - especially not bunching caused by delays - but I was responding to the often flogged concerns about the transition between subway and surface running causing bunching, because of the slowdown in top speeds.
How can this possibly cause bunching, if every single car is going to have to slow down? Break it down for me. I've brought up examples from the subway a million times on here - the 1 line, from Bloor-Yonge to Eglinton West, has a considerably lower average speed than the outer suburban reaches of the line, due to a combinations of closer stop spacings, and curvy lines necessitating slower speeds. If trains don't bunch at these stations, where the train transitions from fast suburban express to milk run, what is going to be different on the 5?
I've seen this too, but without knowing the actual cause of the gap it's near impossible to explain how it figures into the concerns about line 5. Delays are always going to be a thing.
Sorry, but isn't the top frequency of the Paris T9 4 minutes? While dwell times on trams are slower than metros, I have never been on a tram anywhere (except in Toronto downtown) where we've been stuck in one spot anywhere close to 4 minutes. Even on the busiest lines in Europe, it never took more than 30-40 seconds for all the boarding to be completed. I can't see how idling at one stop for 4 minutes would be anywhere close to a regular occurrence.
nfitz
Superstar
That's just the ignorance of those who don't understand basic science. But those people have observed that you get bunching on surface routes, but not on grade-separated routes, and have tried to define it in terms they understand.
The bottom line is there will be bunching - the exact scientific model in how it occurs isn't really relevant to the discussion.
micheal_can
Senior Member
Westey
New Member
This debate started about a dozen years ago when $2 or $3B was proposed to be added to create a true Crosstown.
Now we are spending $10B to extend the B-D line and another $8B to extend Sheppard Subway (beyond McCowan) - all to make up for the mistakes of not making Eglinton the Crosstown.
micheal_can
Senior Member
Please define a true crosstown route.