VIA Rail

[Mihairokov]

Brockville is about 22K. A very quick Internet search reveals it has no rideshare, and unknown number of taxis and about 300 hotel rooms. No clue about the occupancy rate, taxi availability or food service capacity - no doubt it would depend on the time of day, time of year, etc. No clue about VIA RTC's capacity to have somebody always available to sit down and start calling around to find food and accommodation. Even with a comprehensive, nation-wide comprehensive contact list, somebody still has to make calls. If people want some kind of standing agreements to hold rooms, provide food, etc. in every burg, it's gonna cost.

When I originally heard the story my first thought was how Brockville was probably one of the worst places to break down in because it's not particularly close to any of Ottawa/Montreal/Toronto and just far enough from all of them to be the most annoying stop possible. After 7PM there isn't much going on and as you say there's no rideshare, no food service, and presumably not much for hotel availability. Not that any of these are really options for VIA in totality, but the one interview I saw the passenger said they were being fed and were heated which is more than I can say for times where my train has been stopped for an extended period of time.

It's Brockville I'm sure they can find 100 empty rooms or send people to Ottawa by Taxi or Uber. The roads couldn't have been that bad.

VIA doesn't really have contingency for releasing passengers from the train during service, do they? It's a big liability issue if they just open the doors and let people off.

If you're putting people into hotel rooms in Brockville you'll need to keep in mind that there's usually more than 100 people on a trainset - good luck finding ~200 hotel rooms in Brockville that happen to be open and good luck trying to get strangers to room together if you can't, as well as ignoring the most obvious issue which was that it was snowing and blizzard conditions outside. Opening the doors to let passengers out seems like the worst possible decision to make in this instance. What happens when only 50 people can be roomed in a hotel and the others cannot? Either the option is available to everyone or not at all. What happens when the train is able to move again in the middle of the night? Is everyone recalled from their hotel rooms and put back on the train? Can the train not move until early morning so they can retreive all of the passengers? Seems like a nightmare scenario making things far more difficult than simply leaving people on the train.

It's tough enough finding Ubers in Ottawa during snow storms. You're never finding a taxi or uber in a snow storm in Brockville and you're definitely not finding one that's going to do that drive. I rode in an Uber on Tuesday night in Ottawa and the driver didn't have winter tires, and so we were sliding through intersections in the East End.

 

[lenaitch]

When I originally heard the story my first thought was how Brockville was probably one of the worst places to break down in because it's not particularly close to any of Ottawa/Montreal/Toronto and just far enough from all of them to be the most annoying stop possible. After 7PM there isn't much going on and as you say there's no rideshare, no food service, and presumably not much for hotel availability. Not that any of these are really options for VIA in totality, but the one interview I saw the passenger said they were being fed and were heated which is more than I can say for times where my train has been stopped for an extended period of time.

If you think a city of 22K is bad place to break down, hold onto your hat when you take a close look at the entire corridor route environment east of Oshawa, and don't even look at the Canadian route. If it holds true that Alto will largely follow the old O&Q right-of-way, it's not exactly busting with population centres either. There's no magic to taking care of 100 people on a train vs 50 on a bus, except the bus is on a road (hopefully) - if it passible.

 

[Trackside_Treasure]

At the news conference announcing construction of ALTO's high-speed rail line in 2029, a Le Devoir reporter asked Transport Minister Steven MacKinnon about CN freight trains having priority. "Are you afraid of CN or attacking CN? Why are you talking about 2029 why not force CN to let these passenger trains have priority?"

The Minister answered, "Because those tracks belong to CN and we are not a country where we just suddenly expropriate. We are working with CN at this time and you saw in the budget there is a minor provision that talks about adding equipment to VIA Rail locomotives that will allow them to not slow down on certain segments of the track. So we are trying to do small things and big things to improve that service. We continue to be dedicated to VIA Rail and the service it provides to communities and as Minister I want to see constant improvement. CN is helping us every single day. CN is an essential partner for us."

This has to be a reference to guesses that Onboard Shunt Enhancers were in the budget.

 

[Bordercollie]

At the news conference announcing construction of ALTO's high-speed rail line in 2029, a Le Devoir reporter asked Transport Minister Steven MacKinnon about CN freight trains having priority. "Are you afraid of CN or attacking CN? Why are you talking about 2029 why not force CN to let these passenger trains have priority?"

The Minister answered, "Because those tracks belong to CN and we are not a country where we just suddenly expropriate. We are working with CN at this time and you saw in the budget there is a minor provision that talks about adding equipment to VIA Rail locomotives that will allow them to not slow down on certain segments of the track. So we are trying to do small things and big things to improve that service. We continue to be dedicated to VIA Rail and the service it provides to communities and as Minister I want to see constant improvement. CN is helping us every single day. CN is an essential partner for us."

This has to be a reference to guesses that Onboard Shunt Enhancers were in the budget.

Cheaper than buying coaches and faster. But CN can say it still doesn't qualify and continue the slow orders.

 

[Bordercollie]

Sure, and as with every job, it’s impossible to deliver on the job expectations 100% of the time.

Sure, but that’s dealing with a hand full passengers at a time, not 3 trainloads full of passengers and a service disruption which will affect the entire Corridor over the next 24 hours.

Sure, but even the best-trained employes would be bound to the constraints of the real world.

That’s what VIA did.

VIA operates some 70 trains per day (quick estimate after quite a few beers), which adds up to 25,000 trains per year. Even 10 stranded trains per year represent only 0.04% of all departures. We can strive towards mitigating and minimizing risks, but we will never eliminate them entirely. There are just too many things which can happen and many of these things are just beyond our control…

Another train was cancelled and passengers were provided alternative transportation.

Transport minister ‘not happy’ with Via Rail after passengers spend night stranded on train

The federal transport minister says he is “not happy” with Via Rail’s response after more than 100 passengers spent the night stranded on a train in eastern Ontario.

www.ctvnews.ca

 

[Trackside_Treasure]

Cheaper than buying coaches and faster. But CN can say it still doesn't qualify and continue the slow orders.

Never thought the government was going to let VIA buy coaches, anyway. Lengthening trains doesn't solve the problem conclusively because CN can bring in different minimum axle requirements. I also don't agree it would be faster. This is untested and unimplemented technology in North America. But CN has said that Onboard Shunt Enhancers would solve the problem to their satisfaction. March, 2024: Michael Burgett (who left CN on November 29, 2024) was at that time CN's Senior Manager Engineering, Signal Design said it in an internal email:

 

[Bordercollie]

Never thought the government was going to let VIA buy coaches, anyway. Lengthening trains doesn't solve the problem conclusively because CN can bring in different minimum axle requirements. I also don't agree it would be faster. This is untested and unimplemented technology in North America. But CN has said that Onboard Shunt Enhancers would solve the problem to their satisfaction. March, 2024: Michael Burgett (who left CN on November 29, 2024) was at that time CN's Senior Manager Engineering, Signal Design said it in an internal email:
View attachment 702472

Until they change their policy again.

 

[Trackside_Treasure]

Until they change their policy again.

Why would CN do this? They've hung their hat on the US experience and White Paper and used it to justify their speed reductions in Canada. Plus that policy is what's driven Amtrak to adopt OSEs through an FRA exemption. And we ALWAYS follow the States!

 

[Bordercollie]

Why would CN do this? They've hung their hat on the US experience and White Paper and used it to justify their speed reductions in Canada. Plus that policy is what's driven Amtrak to adopt OSEs through an FRA exemption. And we ALWAYS follow the States!

Because they want to create barriers for VIA.

 

[Trackside_Treasure]

Because they want to create barriers for VIA.

You heard it here first, but OSEs are the only thing that looks like it will end this particular barrier imposed by CN on VIA.

 

[micheal_can]

I am no train mechanic...just a ship, but, why does winter sneak upon the railways? Why do the crew not have a propane torch and a hammer on board? Something frozen that is metal, apply heat to melt the ice and snow. Use a little persuasion and Success!Seriously,? And before anyone says propane is dangerous to store, I am talking a small container that could be strapped to the outside of the engine. I know back in the old days of steam heat, they would have that nice warm steam to melt all that would build up.And if a heat source is not feasible.the hammer would easily make short work out of freeing up frozen parts.

 

[lenaitch]

I am no train mechanic...just a ship, but, why does winter sneak upon the railways? Why do the crew not have a propane torch and a hammer on board? Something frozen that is metal, apply heat to melt the ice and snow. Use a little persuasion and Success!Seriously,? And before anyone says propane is dangerous to store, I am talking a small container that could be strapped to the outside of the engine. I know back in the old days of steam heat, they would have that nice warm steam to melt all that would build up.And if a heat source is not feasible.the hammer would easily make short work out of freeing up frozen parts.

Have You worked in a union environment? Would operating rules even allow on-board crews to do that? I'm not sure we even know what the exact problem was. Somebody mentioned a coupler. I have no clue about the couplers used by the Siemens but a lot of the proprietary ones include data/comms connections. Not a great place for heat.

 

[crs1026]

Have You worked in a union environment? Would operating rules even allow on-board crews to do that? I'm not sure we even know what the exact problem was. Somebody mentioned a coupler. I have no clue about the couplers used by the Siemens but a lot of the proprietary ones include data/comms connections. Not a great place for heat.

The average merchant or military vessel has a lot more resources on board to deal with some types of failures or problems than a Venture train does. But even ships have to call for a tow under certain circumstances.
A source has suggested that there was an unforeseen incompatibility between the two Venture sets involved. Maybe it wasn't just a frozen pipe after all. Just inside gossip, but quite credible.
If it was frozen something....having seen what gets done in freezing cold.... applying heat is what you do if you have sufficient time and patience and pure optimism and no other options to suggest and nothing left to lose. Asking a crew with minimal equipment and with defined hours of work to succeed by doing that, while their hours clock is ticking and they have a hundred miles yet to run before it expires, is a different matter. Sometimes cold wins.

- Paul

 

[Bordercollie]

The average merchant or military vessel has a lot more resources on board to deal with some types of failures or problems than a Venture train does. But even ships have to call for a tow under certain circumstances.
A source has suggested that there was an unforeseen incompatibility between the two Venture sets involved. Maybe it wasn't just a frozen pipe after all. Just inside gossip, but quite credible.
If it was frozen something....having seen what gets done in freezing cold.... applying heat is what you do if you have sufficient time and patience and pure optimism and no other options to suggest and nothing left to lose. Asking a crew with minimal equipment and with defined hours of work to succeed by doing that, while their hours clock is ticking and they have a hundred miles yet to run before it expires, is a different matter. Sometimes cold wins.

- Paul

I think more spare crews staged in different places might be a good idea especially in severe weather. Trains are going to be delayed, its inevitable so having extra crews on standby would help a lot.

 

[crs1026]

I think more spare crews staged in different places might be a good idea especially in severe weather. Trains are going to be delayed, its inevitable so having extra crews on standby would help a lot.

Staging *something* along the corridor seems intuitively smart, yes.

But I would question whether crews can be staged in a useful way. VIA has to schedule people to maximise the amount of work they do within the very strict hours of work rules imposed by Ottawa. Adding contingency time to shifts would lower productivity. Having crews staged at midpoints would not work, as they would be conspicuously idle 95% of the time. And, when they are needed, weather and other factors might mean they couldn't reach the scene of the problem. Having crews "time out" on hours is hard to avoid when delays happen given their fairly tight scheduling.

The same is true of trains - VIA's need to cycle trainsets productively means that any delay cascades, as clearly happened recently.

Rapid-response of standby trains and spare board personnel from the existing terminals is possible, but the same productivity issues arise and travel time to the problem would still be problemmatic - if, indeed, a standby train could thread the needle thru blocked freight and passenger trains to reach the problem. Once you have a standby train, maybe it's better deployed to fill in whatever gap in the cycling the non-availability of the stranded train creates.

- Paul