Finch West Line 6 LRT

[Milaisacat]

Well that explains why the used actual traffic lights for the trains on Line 6 instead of the proper transit lights.

"There are TRANSIT signal lights?? Surely this advanced technology hasn't been used in our hemisphere. IT'S BEEN USED TWO TOWNS OVER??? Incredible. We will have to study this remarkable breakthrough. What a time to be alive."

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

It would behoove someone on the board of an organization to educate themselves somewhat about the space that organization operates in. I'm not sure I expect them to become technical experts in that field, but I would try to seek a range of views as it at least helps to equip you to ask the right questions, etc. and to have the confidence to call out BS when you hear it. I'm frankly a bit surprised that no one was listening closely when the claim arose that a faster schedule would result in higher operating cost. If you are on the board of a transit org, I think you should know that the tendency is for the opposite.

No, but they haven't demonstrated the ability to learn or engage in critical thinking so far as transit operations is concerned. In any case, you don't even need to know that to see a problem - couldn't they tell something is *very* wrong when the projected travel time prior to opening is known to be higher than that of buses? It should ring alarm bells for anyone who uses transit regularly.

AoD

 

[IsaacKhouzam]

Been sitting on this info for a bit:

As some of you may know, the T9 tram in Île-de-France (Paris metropolis) is 10.3 km with 19 stops. It is also virtually identical to Line 6 right down to the Alstom Citadis trains and the subway connection at one end.

Preparatory & utility works started in 2016 for both T9 and Line 6. Major construction for T9 started late 2017. For Line 6, major construction started 2 years later in late 2019. Overall, T9 was completed in 5 years from 2016 to April 2021. Mind bogglingly, Line 6 was completed 4 years later in December 2025.

T9 cost €480 million or ~$670-780 million CAD, up from a 2015 cost estimate of €430 million. So far, Metrolinx has incurred $2.5 billion CAD on Line 6 and it runs at nearly half the average speed as T9. And it's not like this T9 tram is cheap because it's in the distant suburbs; one terminus is in tiny, 105 square kilometre Paris city proper. Specifically, Porte de Choisy station is in the XIIIe arrondissement with a population density of 24,900/km^2. In contrast, Line 6 is about 20 km northwest of downtown as the crow flies, and 15 km north of High Park. Metrolinx also has taxpayers paying another $1.2 billion in the contract that includes 30 years of "long-term P3 financing, lifecycle, operating and maintenance costs over concession term".

We genuinely paid over 3 times the price for an inferior tram, for a smaller city, in a farther suburb, completed 4 years slower, and with one less stop (18). And to top it all off, we are hamstrung by a super expensive 30 year contract that puts maintenance costs at over $20 million a year for 10 km of track. Tell me that's not corruption in the Canadian form.

Quote and Mx costs: https://assets.metrolinx.com/image/upload/v1763754630/Documents/Metrolinx/Item_13.5_-_Capital_Projects_-_Rapid_Transit_-_FINAL_ENG_Mx.pdf

To add insult to injury, the T9 also looks like this:

Edit: It appears the first three pictures are of an adjacent tram line (T3A). Picture number four is T9 though.

 

[afransen]

Furthermore, the claim was made that it "became apparent" over a year ago that the travel times quoted by Mx were "not possible". Now, that is quite the claim. Not possible, as in, impossible? Against the laws of physics? Or constrained by bureaucracy and regulations? That should have sparked its own line of questioning.

 

[urbanclient]

Even the Line 6 Citadis trains look terrible compared to the T9 Citadis. Especially with the T9's wider gangways, as well as layout maximizing capacity and ease of boarding. Not to mention the 8 wider side doors for a 45 metre T9 train versus 7 narrower doors for a 48 metre Line 6 train. Both trains are the same exterior width. The T9 trains have 8 colour LCD displays for a live map. In the same spots, Line 6 gets a... laminated piece of paper. And our trains still cost ~30% more.

I only half sarcastically say this, are we stupid?

https://www.railwaypro.com/wp/citadis-tram-for-paris-t9-line-unveiled/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv5yfrLBorg

As some of you may know, the T9 tram in Île-de-France (Paris metropolis) is 10.3 km with 19 stops. It is also [has] Alstom Citadis trains and the subway connection at one end.

Preparatory & utility works started in 2016 for both T9 and Line 6. [...] Overall, T9 was completed in 5 years from 2016 to April 2021. Mind bogglingly, Line 6 was completed 4 years later in December 2025.

T9 cost €480 million or ~$670-780 million CAD [...] So far, Metrolinx has incurred $2.5 billion CAD on Line 6 and it runs at nearly half the average speed as T9.
[...]
Metrolinx also has taxpayers paying another $1.2 billion in the contract that includes 30 years of "long-term P3 financing, lifecycle, operating and maintenance costs over concession term".

We genuinely paid over 3 times the price for an inferior tram, for a smaller city, in a farther suburb, completed 4 years slower, and with one less stop (18). And to top it all off, we are hamstrung by a super expensive 30 year contract that puts maintenance costs at over $20 million a year for 10 km of track. Tell me that's not corruption in the Canadian form.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I don't think they even know how transit signal priority works in Toronto like @reaperexpress , much less elsewhere in North America, the Americas, Europe, or Asia...

I don't know either, but I would like it to work like this:

1. All traffic signals from end to end of the surface level track are centrally sequenced to maximize LRT speed, with each signal looking at 2-3 trains to come to plan (and adjust on the fly) the upcoming sequences. Each signal hands the LRT off to the next one, and so on.
2. As LRT approaches an intersection, the traffic signal either holds the green (and red for left turns) or moves to green (no left turns) so that the LRT need not slow or stop, and proceeds through.
3. If there is risk of north/south perpendicular traffic blocking the box and track, those signals also hold back vehicular traffic until the LRT need not slow or stop due to congestion.
4. And of course, all left turns held back until the LRT has cleared the intersection. If there are dozens of cars waiting to turn left, then lengthen the turning lane where they can wait, or cancel left turns in these places.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Constrained by bureaucracy and regulations? That should have sparked its own line of questioning.

And operations, and organizational norms, and risk profile....

AoD

 

[hw621]

For the love of god...

 

[hw621]

Even the Line 6 Citadis trains look terrible compared to the T9 Citadis. Especially with the T9's wider gangways, as well as layout maximizing capacity and ease of boarding. Not to mention the 8 wider side doors for a 45 metre T9 train versus 7 narrower doors for a 48 metre Line 6 train. Both trains are the same exterior width. The T9 trains have 8 colour LCD displays for a live map. In the same spots, Line 6 gets a... laminated piece of paper. And our trains still cost ~30% more.

I only half sarcastically say this, are we stupid?

View attachment 702079View attachment 702084View attachment 702080View attachment 702083
https://www.railwaypro.com/wp/citadis-tram-for-paris-t9-line-unveiled/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv5yfrLBorg

Not only stupid, but also incompetent and unproductive...

 

[hw621]

The speed things up Motion from the Mayor is on next week's Council agenda. Its pretty much what we saw at TTC but is necessary because because the TTC cannot Direct the City Managae, but Council can.

https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2025/mm/bgrd/backgroundfile-261011.pdf

From the above:

View attachment 702105
View attachment 702106
View attachment 702107

While this might help, it does not address all the issues...what about the self-imposed speed limits?

 

[Northern Light]

While this might help, it does not address all the issues...what about the self-imposed speed limits?

Addressed via the motion at TTC yesterday: (bold is key, not my highlighting though)

Motions​

Motion to Introduce Motion without Notice moved by Councillor Alejandra Bravo (Carried)




Motion to Amend Item moved by Julie Osborne (Carried)

It is recommended that the TTC Board:

1. Direct the TTC CEO to work with the City Manager, the Ministry of Transportation, Metrolinx, Mosaic Transit Group and/or Crosslinx Transit Solutions to significantly improve performance, frequency and speed on Line 5 and Line 6 by exploring and implementing where possible, the following measures including, but not limited to, strengthening transit signal priority, feasibility of increasing service frequency (including any required operating funding subsidy increase from the Province of Ontario), reviewing internal TTC and City of Toronto policies which govern speeds on surface routes including requirements to slow at intersections and have speed limits below those of parallel cars, and examination of line management data to uncover specific sources of unreliability and delay, and to provide a progress update to the TTC Board no later than Q1 2026.

2. Direct the TTC CEO to report back to the TTC Board in Q4 2026 on a plan to measure the performance of LRT lines, including end-to-end travel targets.




Motion to Adopt Item as Amended moved by Councillor Jamaal Myers (Carried)

Vote (Adopt Item as Amended)​

 

[urbanclient]

Not only stupid, but also incompetent and unproductive...

The Paris metropolitan region has a nominal GDP per capita of $77,000 USD now, versus $55,000 USD for the GTHA. How are the stereotypically lazy, 8 week vacation, bureaucratic French doing better than us when we used to make fun of them for having lower salaries and lower per capita GDP? Clearly that stereotype was wrong.

I wonder if it's because we have inadequate transit, inadequate transit plans, and the transit we do get is 3 times the cost for the same length...thereby hamstringing any and all economic growth.

Paris is no stranger to low-skilled immigration and expensive housing. Not to mention the occasional city burning riot. God Toronto is such an unserious city.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1638271461352787996

We genuinely paid over 3 times the price for an inferior tram, for a smaller city, in a farther suburb, completed 4 years slower, and with one less stop (18). And to top it all off, we are hamstrung by a super expensive 30 year contract that puts maintenance costs at over $20 million a year for 10 km of track. Tell me that's not corruption in the Canadian form.

 

[txlseries4]

While this might help, it does not address all the issues...what about the self-imposed speed limits?

One of the board members yesterday moved an amendment on two motions that addressed that issue (bold mine):

Direct the TTC CEO to work with the City Manager, the Ministry of Transportation, Metrolinx, Mosaic Transit Group and/or Crosslinx Transit Solutions to significantly improve performance, frequency and speed on Line 5 and Line 6 by exploring and implementing where possible, the following measures including, but not limited to, strengthening transit signal priority, feasibility of increasing service frequency (including any required operating funding subsidy increase from the Province of Ontario), reviewing internal TTC and City of Toronto policies which govern speeds on surface routes including requirements to slow at intersections and have speed limits below those of parallel cars, and examination of line management data to uncover specific sources of unreliability and delay, and to provide a progress update to the TTC Board no later than Q1 2026.

from here: https://secure.toronto.ca/council/agenda-item.do?item=2025.TTC11.8

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Even the Line 6 Citadis trains look terrible compared to the T9 Citadis. Especially with the T9's wider gangways, as well as layout maximizing capacity and ease of boarding. Not to mention the 8 wider side doors for a 45 metre T9 train versus 7 narrower doors for a 48 metre Line 6 train. Both trains are the same exterior width. The T9 trains have 8 colour LCD displays for a live map. In the same spots, Line 6 gets a... laminated piece of paper. And our trains still cost ~30% more.

I only half sarcastically say this, are we stupid?

View attachment 702079View attachment 702084View attachment 702080View attachment 702083
https://www.railwaypro.com/wp/citadis-tram-for-paris-t9-line-unveiled/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv5yfrLBorg

Despite the same width and vehicle, the Parisian trains look much better. I mentioned in the Hurontario thread already that the Citadis vehicles feel like a downgrade on the Bombardier Flexity Freedom vehicles.

Which I don't think will help the reputation of the Finch line as rapid transit when the downtown streetcar lines are also operating nicer vehicles (at similar operation speeds...).

 

[hw621]

Addressed via the motion at TTC yesterday: (bold is key, not my highlighting though)

Motions​

Motion to Introduce Motion without Notice moved by Councillor Alejandra Bravo (Carried)




Motion to Amend Item moved by Julie Osborne (Carried)

It is recommended that the TTC Board:

1. Direct the TTC CEO to work with the City Manager, the Ministry of Transportation, Metrolinx, Mosaic Transit Group and/or Crosslinx Transit Solutions to significantly improve performance, frequency and speed on Line 5 and Line 6 by exploring and implementing where possible, the following measures including, but not limited to, strengthening transit signal priority, feasibility of increasing service frequency (including any required operating funding subsidy increase from the Province of Ontario), reviewing internal TTC and City of Toronto policies which govern speeds on surface routes including requirements to slow at intersections and have speed limits below those of parallel cars, and examination of line management data to uncover specific sources of unreliability and delay, and to provide a progress update to the TTC Board no later than Q1 2026.

2. Direct the TTC CEO to report back to the TTC Board in Q4 2026 on a plan to measure the performance of LRT lines, including end-to-end travel targets.




Motion to Adopt Item as Amended moved by Councillor Jamaal Myers (Carried)

Vote (Adopt Item as Amended)​

Q4 2026 lol