innsertnamehere
Superstar
A reminder that Ford is apparently nominally planning a transit line along the 401 as a part of the 401 highway tunnel. What that looks like, and the chances of it happening..
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Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)
- Thread starter denfromoakvillemilton
- Start date
mikey7767
New Member
Chances are not very high. Still very possible, but unlikely. It would cost more than a hundred billion.
junctionist
Senior Member
I hate freeway-based rapid transit lines. Freeways are usually the least pedestrian friendly areas with a surrounding built form that’s almost never transit friendly. Ridership will never be that high, and the lines won’t urbanize the surrounding areas.
Witness the ridership, density, and development that has occurred around the 1978 Spadina line extension in the middle of the Allen versus the phenomenal evolution of the area around the Yonge Street subway. The difference is night and day from a city-building perspective.
Perhaps the 401 rapid transit line could still be justified as a fast regional trunk line, but only with seamless connections to intersecting bus routes (e.g. without leaving the station) and fare integration. You don’t need to build a tunnel, though; the land is already there. It’s just dedicated to cars. The transit infrastructure is just meant to sanitize the ridiculousness of the tunnel from a cost-benefit perspective.
Witness the ridership, density, and development that has occurred around the 1978 Spadina line extension in the middle of the Allen versus the phenomenal evolution of the area around the Yonge Street subway. The difference is night and day from a city-building perspective.
Perhaps the 401 rapid transit line could still be justified as a fast regional trunk line, but only with seamless connections to intersecting bus routes (e.g. without leaving the station) and fare integration. You don’t need to build a tunnel, though; the land is already there. It’s just dedicated to cars. The transit infrastructure is just meant to sanitize the ridiculousness of the tunnel from a cost-benefit perspective.
Obsidian
Active Member
But this is due to zoning not the transit. the same can be said for the bloor line. if the city allows density anywhere int he city it will be filled by developers.
If the city wants to densify allow the Allen it will happen if they change the zoning for the area.
T-Bor
Active Member
The Allen is 6 lanes - the 401 is 16. Plus longer on/off ramps, etc.
junctionist
Senior Member
Having transit in the middle of the highway plays a big part in terms of the lackluster feel of the area. It's not just zoning and development. Pedestrians aren't drawn to areas like most of what surrounds the Allen.
There are many parts of Bloor with few towers due to zoning like the Annex west of Spadina, Koreatown, and Bloor West Village. They're still more walkable and vibrant (with thriving mixed-use areas) than the areas around the Allen for the most part.
It makes little difference that there are apartment towers near Glencairn. Pedestrians prefer to go to places like the Annex, Koreatown, and Bloor West Village than areas built around a highway.
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6ixGod
Active Member
Obsidian
Active Member
you were complaining about density and development around the Allen, not urbanism.
Density and development is all due to zoning and has virtually nothing to do with transit.
If the city allow development in any part of the city, it will get done by developers regardless of the transit situation.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Modern urbanist thinking may, in some cases, be at odds with the interests of actual transit users.
First of all, although the presense of a highway is a negative for pedestrian appeal, it is not always a deciding factor. Distillery District is pretty walkable and busy, yet it is located right next to the Gardiner and the busy rail corridor. Yorkdale Mall is essentially a large roofed pedestrian area, yet it is located right next to 2 highways.
More importantly: the main goal of building transit is not to make a certain small area walkable / vibrant / pedestrian friendly. The main goal is to carry people, residing in a much larger area, around the city.
In that view: rejecting any transit line construction in a highway median would be short-sighted.
Case in point: Allen Road. Yes, it would be better if, instead of running the subway there, they cut it diagonnaly a bit further to reach Dufferin, and then continue up Dufferin. The street would densify, and there would be fewer problems with the Dufferin bus, which is currently overloaded.
But, that kind of construction would be more expensive, too. What if they said "Well, an Allen Road subway is a nonstarter, and we can't afford a subway tunnel under Dufferin. Let's not bother, one north-south subway line (Yonge) is enough." How well would the Yonge line fare today, without a partial relief provided by the other branch.
First of all, although the presense of a highway is a negative for pedestrian appeal, it is not always a deciding factor. Distillery District is pretty walkable and busy, yet it is located right next to the Gardiner and the busy rail corridor. Yorkdale Mall is essentially a large roofed pedestrian area, yet it is located right next to 2 highways.
More importantly: the main goal of building transit is not to make a certain small area walkable / vibrant / pedestrian friendly. The main goal is to carry people, residing in a much larger area, around the city.
In that view: rejecting any transit line construction in a highway median would be short-sighted.
Case in point: Allen Road. Yes, it would be better if, instead of running the subway there, they cut it diagonnaly a bit further to reach Dufferin, and then continue up Dufferin. The street would densify, and there would be fewer problems with the Dufferin bus, which is currently overloaded.
But, that kind of construction would be more expensive, too. What if they said "Well, an Allen Road subway is a nonstarter, and we can't afford a subway tunnel under Dufferin. Let's not bother, one north-south subway line (Yonge) is enough." How well would the Yonge line fare today, without a partial relief provided by the other branch.