Highway 401 Transit and Auto Tunnel

[Rainforest]

Oh ya? Well, the Scarborough Subway extension is about 8 km with three stations and the bill is now about 10 billion. Fantasy Four!Oh!One! is 7.5 times as long. It's supposed to have a transit line in the bottom. Let's say that has 10 stations, which are about 40 meters below and 50 to 500 meters laterally from the intersections and/or transit lines they connect with. And that's just the transit. The road tunnel has to have at least five interchanges, largely underground, which change grades up to 30 meters, avoiding watercourses and arterial roads.

All this for twice the cost of the SSE? That's not optimism, that's magical thinking.

Don't worry, they will drop the transit line to cut the cost

 

[micheal_can]

Not debating the merits of tunnel, just saying people were laughing at his "crayon / marker drawings on a napkin" for transit lines and lots of people were laughing at him saying it is not realistic. Well now his napkin paper drawing is being built and considering he is office until Mid 2029, these projects will be to late in the process to be cancelled or changed materially.

Regarding your DRL comment, the media and others on this forum were saying the ontario line was not feasible to be built and doesn't have merit compared to the actual DRL. Well I guess that ship has sailed and we are getting the OL in the same shape and form Ford proposed it as.

The only project that I heard people laughing at was the Smartrack line. The OL isn't that.

For the sake of this country, Mark Carney and his Liberal government must IMMEDIATELY shut down the idea of any funding for Doug Ford's $100B vanity project!

Carney may string him along to keep his support.

First - you are assuming it's 7.5 times the length. We have no idea about the project length. There are simply too many variables and we have been provided literally zero details. If you inflate the scope of the project massively, maybe you can get it closer to $100 billion, sure..

The recently completed WestConnex project in Sydney dug a 6-lane motorway tunnel the equivalent length from the 427 to 404 for $20 billion AUD.

We need to know more. MTO is studying the central 401 corridor to review capacity expansion options - that does not inherently mean a 55km tunnel with 10 rapid transit stations. Could the scope end up as you describe? maybe. But I think it's unlikely. You are probably more likely to see a project run from the 427 to 404 or so, with the claimed transit tunnel connecting a bit further to existing lines and probably costing over half the total project budget to include.

From where to where would be the shortest that it could be built and be effective?
My thinking would be the 407 in the west and the 412 in the east. Less than that and it won't be effective.

 

[Rainforest]

Not debating the merits of tunnel, just saying people were laughing at his "crayon / marker drawings on a napkin" for transit lines and lots of people were laughing at him saying it is not realistic. Well now his napkin paper drawing is being built and considering he is office until Mid 2029, these projects will be to late in the process to be cancelled or changed materially.

Regarding your DRL comment, the media and others on this forum were saying the ontario line was not feasible to be built and doesn't have merit compared to the actual DRL. Well I guess that ship has sailed and we are getting the OL in the same shape and form Ford proposed it as.

Anything is possible; it might happen, doesn't necessarily mean it will happen.

Ontario Line was certainly feasible, and is located in the right place (mostly). The implementation is not optimal, the modest cost saving resulted a significant reduction of the future capacity limit.

The 401 tunnel, on the other hand, is not going to be in the right place, regardless of capacity. Cars making faster 401 trips, then most of those cars ending up in longer traffic jams on the regular streets once they exit the 401/tunnel.

 

[Sunnyside]

The only project that I heard people laughing at was the Smartrack line. The OL isn't that.



Carney may string him along to keep his support.



From where to where would be the shortest that it could be built and be effective?
My thinking would be the 407 in the west and the 412 in the east. Less than that and it won't be effective.

427 to 404 is almost certainly the best ‘minimum’ viable route, with the ‘true’ minimum being the 400 to 404, which isn’t really an option imo because of the bottleneck it makes/exacerbates.

For this threads reference, we can list the options in order of length, actually. And no, I will not attempt to cost this at all.

1. 400-404
2. 427-404
3. 410-404
4. 410-Rouge
5. 407-Rouge
6. 407-412
7. 407-418
8. Milton-418

By 5 or 6 you start losing touch with reality. A greenfield route might actually work better, and the trip patterns split too much to make a single tunnel impactful (ie the widening gap in travel patterns as one goes further NW & SW).

 

[PL1]

427 to 404 is almost certainly the best ‘minimum’ viable route, with the ‘true’ minimum being the 400 to 404, which isn’t really an option imo because of the bottleneck it makes/exacerbates.

For this threads reference, we can list the options in order of length, actually. And no, I will not attempt to cost this at all.

1. 400-404
2. 427-404
3. 410-404
4. 410-Rouge
5. 407-Rouge
6. 407-412
7. 407-418
8. Milton-418

By 5 or 6 you start losing touch with reality. A greenfield route might actually work better, and the trip patterns split too much to make a single tunnel impactful (ie the widening gap in travel patterns as one goes further NW & SW).

I'm surprised Ford hasn't suggested central Etobicoke to Queen's Park

 

[narduch]

I'm surprised Ford hasn't suggested central Etobicoke to Queen's Park

Or Muskoka to Etobicoke

 

[micheal_can]

427 to 404 is almost certainly the best ‘minimum’ viable route, with the ‘true’ minimum being the 400 to 404, which isn’t really an option imo because of the bottleneck it makes/exacerbates.

For this threads reference, we can list the options in order of length, actually. And no, I will not attempt to cost this at all.

1. 400-404
2. 427-404
3. 410-404
4. 410-Rouge
5. 407-Rouge
6. 407-412
7. 407-418
8. Milton-418

By 5 or 6 you start losing touch with reality. A greenfield route might actually work better, and the trip patterns split too much to make a single tunnel impactful (ie the widening gap in travel patterns as one goes further NW & SW).

My issues is if you don't get it out further will you even have space to bring the portals up to the surface. The tunnels need to come up somewhere.

 

[Sunnyside]

My issues is if you don't get it out further will you even have space to bring the portals up to the surface. The tunnels need to come up somewhere.

Given the size of the project, you can definitely afford to expropriate the land you’d need for a portal. It would be tens of billions cheaper than going 2-3x as long instead.

 

[micheal_can]

Given the size of the project, you can definitely afford to expropriate the land you’d need for a portal. It would be tens of billions cheaper than going 2-3x as long instead.

Ok, if that is the case, where would the portals be for 3 lanes near the 404?

 

[innsertnamehere]

My issues is if you don't get it out further will you even have space to bring the portals up to the surface. The tunnels need to come up somewhere.

MTO Owns an absolute tonne of land along the 401 already beyond what many expect - especially in the 427/401 area.

The 401/427 interchange is actually already built to connect to another freeway which never came along Eglinton. That whole interchange was built to have a 6-lane freeway connection heading down Eglinton Avenue (the "Richview Expressway" that never was). A theoretical tunnel could probably just tie into that and save billions on building a series of complex ramps at the interchange.

On the 404 side things are a bit tighter, but as others have said it's not like MTO can't expropriate. They regularly do so for other highways projects (401 through Oshawa, Dixie Rd Interchange on the QEW, 400 new interchanges through Barrie all needed a fairly significant amount of property).

 

[narduch]

Oh man. You hate traffic now? Wait until they have to block off large portions of the 401 at the 400 and 404 (or wherever the entry is) in order to build this stupid thing. It will be a mess for years

 

[Sunnyside]

Oh man. You hate traffic now? Wait until they have to block off large portions of the 401 at the 400 and 404 (or wherever the entry is) in order to build this stupid thing. It will be a mess for years

I honestly cannot say if this would actually happen -closures, that is- if you’re expropriating land for a portal and boring your tunnels. I lean towards ‘no’ since in theory there is no need for the 401 and connecting highways to interact with the tunnel until the final connections are made.

 

[micheal_can]

MTO Owns an absolute tonne of land along the 401 already beyond what many expect - especially in the 427/401 area.

The 401/427 interchange is actually already built to connect to another freeway which never came along Eglinton. That whole interchange was built to have a 6-lane freeway connection heading down Eglinton Avenue (the "Richview Expressway" that never was). A theoretical tunnel could probably just tie into that and save billions on building a series of complex ramps at the interchange.

On the 404 side things are a bit tighter, but as others have said it's not like MTO can't expropriate. They regularly do so for other highways projects (401 through Oshawa, Dixie Rd Interchange on the QEW, 400 new interchanges through Barrie all needed a fairly significant amount of property).

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Lets have a game... Which of those towers are you tearing down?
For the western edge, 427 and west makes sense and could be done as it is less dense. For the east, you don't have the room without removing towers. You know, ones that house people, during a housing crisis? Sure a lane or 2 for ramps is doable, but an actual portal, not so much.

 

[innsertnamehere]

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Lets have a game... Which of those towers are you tearing down?
For the western edge, 427 and west makes sense and could be done as it is less dense. For the east, you don't have the room without removing towers. You know, ones that house people, during a housing crisis? Sure a lane or 2 for ramps is doable, but an actual portal, not so much.

Those towers aren't as close to the road as you think - they are over 60 metres from the existing MTO property line, which is in itself pretty far from the edge of the existing 401 ramps. There is almost 100 metres of space between the 401 ramp and that tower - plenty to work with.

MTO would not be expropriating large towers like that, more like low-rise townhouses and single-detached homes or industrial properties.

 

[micheal_can]

Those towers aren't as close to the road as you think - they are over 60 metres from the existing MTO property line, which is in itself pretty far from the edge of the existing 401 ramps. There is almost 100 metres of space between the 401 ramp and that tower - plenty to work with.

I will have to take your word on that. Those corners are tight as it is, and pushing them even closer to those towers sounds like it will make them even worse.

MTO would not be expropriating large towers like that, more like low-rise townhouses and single-detached homes or industrial properties.

Which in that area, it does not have. The 427, 410, 407, and west does and could be done rather easily. 400 and east is not so easy.

I look forward to any real map releases from the province if this goes forward.