GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[ShonTron]

Does this mean that this will be the first GO line that has more than one termini that will see trains not serve all stations of the line depending on the termini?
Something to Cambridge has been a long time coming. Hopefully Next can be an extension to Bradford, either through using the Dundas sub,or the old ROW from Cambridge.

No, not at all. There are two branches of the Lakeshore West Line into Hamilton. The Lakeshore East extension to Bowmanville will divert from the existing corridor west of Oshawa Station.

 

[Willybru21]

Does this mean that this will be the first GO line that has more than one termini that will see trains not serve all stations of the line depending on the termini?

I’m a little confused by your wording here but wouldn’t Niagara Falls-West Harbour/Hamilton Centre the first one?

 

[micheal_can]

I’m a little confused by your wording here but wouldn’t Niagara Falls-West Harbour/Hamilton Centre the first one?

I guess it is. Thank you to both you and the other to point that out. For some reason, I thought they were just extensions along the same line.

 

[Sunnyside]

Yes, Brantford.....I always confuse the 2 even though I know the 2.

Would certainly be nice, but I don’t think there’s room/time slots for GO to go to Brantford as-is without usurping VIA services. It’s my understanding this is CNs mainline, hence they wouldnt be really willing to budge. We only associate this behaviour with CP because we actively do use their mainline (which was a “gift”); we don’t really operate GO on any CN mainline in a similar way.

Adding passing tracks might work, but as with everything touching Hamilton, the geography isn’t well suited to adding tracks to the Dundas sub. So we gotta go to negotiating for time slots…

Not to say we shouldn’t try; I think GO could, perhaps even should usurp VIA on Toronto-London via Dundas, but I don’t think entrenched interests want that.

 

[Northern Light]

Would certainly be nice, but I don’t think there’s room/time slots for GO to go to Brantford as-is without usurping VIA services.

There is some room, I believe, but not a lot.

It’s my understanding this is CNs mainline,

This is true.

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@Urban Sky is probably best equipped to discuss the potential of this line for additional service.

 

[micheal_can]

Would certainly be nice, but I don’t think there’s room/time slots for GO to go to Brantford as-is without usurping VIA services. It’s my understanding this is CNs mainline, hence they wouldnt be really willing to budge. We only associate this behaviour with CP because we actively do use their mainline (which was a “gift”); we don’t really operate GO on any CN mainline in a similar way.

Adding passing tracks might work, but as with everything touching Hamilton, the geography isn’t well suited to adding tracks to the Dundas sub. So we gotta go to negotiating for time slots…

Not to say we shouldn’t try; I think GO could, perhaps even should usurp VIA on Toronto-London via Dundas, but I don’t think entrenched interests want that.

This makes sense as to why it hasn't gone to Brantford yet. My guess is once Metrolinx/the province sees that it should be, then they will look at options.

 

[Urban Sky]

There is some room, I believe, but not a lot.



This is true.

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@Urban Sky is probably best equipped to discuss the potential of this line for additional service.

„Much pain for little gain“ is probably the best way to describe GO train service from Brantford. Once HFR-style speeds and frequencies have been established on the Northern Route, however, it would be only natural for GO to take over the milkruns to London…

 

[Metroscapes]

On the Cambridge GO matter, I say a connection on the Fergus Spur is a great idea, not because it would be a connection for Cambridge residents to Toronto / vice-versa, but a direct Cambridge to Guelph route. Lots of people commute between Guelph to Cambridge and the 124 gets all clogged up. Even if it served a small amount of people it would make a difference.

GO could start running a bus in advance, but just look at how long it took Route 17 to come into existence, and it's still not a great connection to Kitchener. I have no faith unless Minister Sarkaria himself gives GO's bus division a swift kick in the ass.

They are down to one customer in Cambridge with service once per week. That's a lot of track miles and several high maintenance bridges and crossing for very little revenue. CN wants out of the Fergus Spur and the only reason it has stuck around this long is because they are speculating on selling it for GO service. If the Fergus Spur GO plan falls through, the line is done, and as highlighted above, it will be redeveloped, permanently erasing the corridor.

It's worth noting this is very old line; the Guelph & Galt Railway (G&G) was established in 1856. Service only extends to an industrial park north of Pinebush. South of there, it has been abandoned. It has no value even as an interchange with CPKC; they already have that between the CN Huron Spur and CPKC Waterloo Subdivision in Kitchener, and the Galt Yard has mostly been ripped up.

I will also say that anyone betting on cashing in from the government, from this government, for this line is crazy. But I wouldn't be shocked if this government offered a favour elsewhere, if past behaviour is something to go by.

 

[Urban Sky]

On the Cambridge GO matter, I say a connection on the Fergus Spur is a great idea, not because it would be a connection for Cambridge residents to Toronto / vice-versa, but a direct Cambridge to Guelph route. Lots of people commute between Guelph to Cambridge and the 124 gets all clogged up. Even if it served a small amount of people it would make a difference.

The Fergus Sub/Spur is the only realistic chance for Cambridge to regain passenger rail service, as the 50 km between Milton and Cambridge along the Galt Sub lack any relevant population centre (almost like the 100 km between the greenbelt and Peterborough along the Havelock Sub), making an extension of the Milton line unviable…

 

[crs1026]

I cannot see the merits of a standalone Guelph-Cambridge rail service, when a bus could offer a cheaper ride with greater frequency and perhaps a one-seat ride through the first and last mile territory at either end. One wonders why there is not already an intensive bus connection on that route....the ridership will indeed support it.

Pushing 2WAD GO rail to Cambridge when we don't even have it to Guelph or Milton seems pretty unrealistic. If we are talking a small number of peak service trains pushed further west from their current terminus, the G+G route may be cheaper to build than the CPKC route, but with a time penalty that may incent potential to drive to Milton instead.

Personally, I'm just not seeing the value in making Cambridge a rail-connected satellite community at all. Some communities will have to be linked by (much better) bus service, and Cambridge is just in the wrong place for a rail link.

- Paul

PS - I would argue strongly for the retention (likely by the Region) of the industrial trackage in Cambridge, perhaps using a contracted shortline. The issue is not how much business exists today, it's how to preserve the employment potential of that industrial area.

If CN wants to abandon the connection to Guelph, that's fine - the remaining business can interchange with CPKC (actually, the railways will fight this kind of transfer of business, with the support of the current regulatory regime.....and that's something that legislation ought to address.... if CN abandons service, they should abandon the "ownership" of any business opportunity along that territory).

 

[ShonTron]

The Fergus Sub/Spur is the only realistic chance for Cambridge to regain passenger rail service, as the 50 km between Milton and Cambridge along the Galt Sub lack any relevant population centre (almost like the 100 km between the greenbelt and Peterborough along the Havelock Sub), making an extension of the Milton line unviable…

It could work with a park and ride at Puslinch Station – and we know that Metrolinx is not above building GO stations in the middle of nowhere as long as they have great parking access.

But we are going into fantasy map territory, and the CN Fergus Sub is slightly more feasible than the CP Galt. But I expect a lot of the potential Cambridge-Guelph traffic are students, who would be better served by direct buses to U of G to start.

 

[micheal_can]

I cannot see the merits of a standalone Guelph-Cambridge rail service, when a bus could offer a cheaper ride with greater frequency and perhaps a one-seat ride through the first and last mile territory at either end. One wonders why there is not already an intensive bus connection on that route....the ridership will indeed support it.

Pushing 2WAD GO rail to Cambridge when we don't even have it to Guelph or Milton seems pretty unrealistic. If we are talking a small number of peak service trains pushed further west from their current terminus, the G+G route may be cheaper to build than the CPKC route, but with a time penalty that may incent potential to drive to Milton instead.

Personally, I'm just not seeing the value in making Cambridge a rail-connected satellite community at all. Some communities will have to be linked by (much better) bus service, and Cambridge is just in the wrong place for a rail link.

- Paul

PS - I would argue strongly for the retention (likely by the Region) of the industrial trackage in Cambridge, perhaps using a contracted shortline. The issue is not how much business exists today, it's how to preserve the employment potential of that industrial area.

If CN wants to abandon the connection to Guelph, that's fine - the remaining business can interchange with CPKC (actually, the railways will fight this kind of transfer of business, with the support of the current regulatory regime.....and that's something that legislation ought to address.... if CN abandons service, they should abandon the "ownership" of any business opportunity along that territory).

I don't think anyone would suggest that it only goes between Cambridge and Guelph.

 

[sixrings]

I cannot see the merits of a standalone Guelph-Cambridge rail service, when a bus could offer a cheaper ride with greater frequency and perhaps a one-seat ride through the first and last mile territory at either end. One wonders why there is not already an intensive bus connection on that route....the ridership will indeed support it.

Pushing 2WAD GO rail to Cambridge when we don't even have it to Guelph or Milton seems pretty unrealistic. If we are talking a small number of peak service trains pushed further west from their current terminus, the G+G route may be cheaper to build than the CPKC route, but with a time penalty that may incent potential to drive to Milton instead.

Personally, I'm just not seeing the value in making Cambridge a rail-connected satellite community at all. Some communities will have to be linked by (much better) bus service, and Cambridge is just in the wrong place for a rail link.

- Paul

PS - I would argue strongly for the retention (likely by the Region) of the industrial trackage in Cambridge, perhaps using a contracted shortline. The issue is not how much business exists today, it's how to preserve the employment potential of that industrial area.

If CN wants to abandon the connection to Guelph, that's fine - the remaining business can interchange with CPKC (actually, the railways will fight this kind of transfer of business, with the support of the current regulatory regime.....and that's something that legislation ought to address.... if CN abandons service, they should abandon the "ownership" of any business opportunity along that territory).

No worries. Milton line people love the current arrangement. We get to take a bus down to the lakeshore line. Who says needless transfers isn’t fun and good for ridership.

 

[robmausser]

I don't think anyone would suggest that it only goes between Cambridge and Guelph.

The study has looked at several options, both diverting some Kitchener Line trains down the Fergus sub as a spur and its own DMU service, which would require a transfer at Guelph and really be a train that only goes between Cambridge and Guelph.

 

[Metroscapes]

I cannot see the merits of a standalone Guelph-Cambridge rail service, when a bus could offer a cheaper ride with greater frequency and perhaps a one-seat ride through the first and last mile territory at either end. One wonders why there is not already an intensive bus connection on that route....the ridership will indeed support it.

Pushing 2WAD GO rail to Cambridge when we don't even have it to Guelph or Milton seems pretty unrealistic. If we are talking a small number of peak service trains pushed further west from their current terminus, the G+G route may be cheaper to build than the CPKC route, but with a time penalty that may incent potential to drive to Milton instead.

Personally, I'm just not seeing the value in making Cambridge a rail-connected satellite community at all. Some communities will have to be linked by (much better) bus service, and Cambridge is just in the wrong place for a rail link.

- Paul

PS - I would argue strongly for the retention (likely by the Region) of the industrial trackage in Cambridge, perhaps using a contracted shortline. The issue is not how much business exists today, it's how to preserve the employment potential of that industrial area.

If CN wants to abandon the connection to Guelph, that's fine - the remaining business can interchange with CPKC (actually, the railways will fight this kind of transfer of business, with the support of the current regulatory regime.....and that's something that legislation ought to address.... if CN abandons service, they should abandon the "ownership" of any business opportunity along that territory).

I don't think anyone would suggest that it only goes between Cambridge and Guelph.

I don't see how it functions as anything other than a DMU (HMU maybe if we really wanna dream?) between those points. The point of getting picked up by Waterloo Central or Guelph Junction Railway is a good one though. Both of these municipally owned railways have concrete examples of the increased flexibility that would come with it. The former has ION service and occasional excursion trains. Both have rail trails tight up against the ROW. I imagine such a purchase would unlock easier permission to run a simplified train service, whether it's under a GO, GRT or some other brand. Coupling it with the freight deliveries could help make up the inspection and maintenance budget.