GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[ShonTron]

The myth that the Weston people are a bunch of common NIMBYs simply opposed to more trains in their neighbourhood almost as hard to put away as the ignorant misconception that Obama is Muslim.

 

[TOareaFan]

Demand is higher there, and promised have been made for over 30 years. Looking back at the Toronto Transit website the line was carrying over 4,000,000 rideras a year by 1968; more than any other line currently carries, except Milton (which is about 6,000,000 a year now). Even with the currently increased off-peak service on the Georgetown line it is under 4,000,000. While the Lakeshore is currently over 24,000,000.

I presume that 24,000,000 on Lakeshore is east and west (still impressive numbers but it really is two lines).

demand is a funny thing though.....service and demands are a bit chicken and egg? both Milton and Lakeshore have much better service than Georgetown. In the case of Lakeshore it is all trains but in the case of Milton line they have far more bus service after the trains stop....so people can more easily rely on the service to meet flexible work schedules, etc.

Georgetown line (who, lets face it, has its biggest population draws in Brampton) seem to suffer from Brampton having the York Mills/Yorkdale bus routes. They serve a totally different route but GO seems to lump it all together (in the 90's I remember being told by a GO official that if I don't have enough service from Union to Bramalea GO station should just catch the subway to York Mills and take the bus to the Bramalea City Centre....hopefully they have lost that attitude).

I just don't see the logic in delaying upgrades that have been in planning for decades, to increase services for less people. (and I really don't think these things are mutually exclusive. GO in 2004 started several upgrade projects, and this is the first to bear major fruit. And perhaps the low-hanging fruit too.)

I don't think it is less people...just less people currently riding GO trains. Brampton is the 3rd largest (by far) city in the GTA. Until someone can tell me there is a logical reason why that population would not be equally inclined to ride the train...I have to assume the lower ridership is due to lower service levels....and since that means there is a potential new group of customers that is the low hanging fruit to me...improve a transit line that actually might produce new riders.....not just increase the frequency even further for ones you already have.

So you should have equal service for every route no matter how much or little demand there is? Or you should ignore upgrade planning and promises made before some of the current routes were even conceived?

Again, I am not sure "demand" and current ridership numbers are the same thing. As for promises, well in 1967 I think the population of what is now Brampton was around 50,000 people so don't those promises have to be relooked at as populations shift and grow. I am sure if I reminded Gary McNeil of his letter to me saying there would be no new rail services until all lines were full service....he would say that you have to be flexible and Barrie has really grown.

 

[nfitz]

both Milton and Lakeshore have much better service than Georgetown.

No Georgetown has better service than Milton. There are 9 trains a day on the Georgetown line (not all getting to Georgetown itself, but that isn't that big) and only 6 a day on the Milton line. Yet the Milton line has 50% more riders.

I think Milton could easily support full hourly service now - but CP is difficult to work with, there isn't much track, and it's going to take a few years and a lot of $ to build it.

 

[nfitz]

I'll say it yet again... Weston WANTS more trains going through their neighbourhood. They've asked for it.

Perhaps they do, but their antics have scared everyone shitless, and even though it was the first of the GO projects to be funded, I expect it will be the last one built, because of the militancy of the residents. The amount of headaches and pain that exists for staff working on that project must be incredible - no wonder they'd rather deal with other projects first.

 

[ShonTron]

It's not the Weston people's fault that the Blue22 boondoggle had too many flaws to begin with. But arguing this point about the "NIMBYs" with some people is like trying to correct the misconceptions of a typical West Virginian voter.

 

[TOareaFan]

No Georgetown has better service than Milton. There are 9 trains a day on the Georgetown line (not all getting to Georgetown itself, but that isn't that big) and only 6 a day on the Milton line. Yet the Milton line has 50% more riders.

I think if you look at the combination of the GO Train and Bus/Train service you will reach a different conclusion.

I will give you a wee example....last winter I drove my daughter and her friend down to the ACC for a concert and I waited outside.......one of those storms we got a lot of last year rolled in and I thought..."why don't we take the bus home to be safe/responsible"

Went to the nearest departure board.....what I saw was 7 of the next 10 departures were headed to Milton.....0 of 10 to Brampton.

Yes everyone should have trains but if you train in what you want to know is that you have a reasonable number of options to come home so that you have more flexibility......the Milton line has far more reaching service and departure options than any spot on the Georgetown line.

BTW....according to statscan....2006 population of Georgetown...55,289....population of Milton....53,939....

I think Milton could easily support full hourly service now - but CP is difficult to work with, there isn't much track, and it's going to take a few years and a lot of $ to build it.

It probably could but to think that a line as populated as Georgetown couldn't is wrong. The Georgetown line has been so underserved for so long it has not had the growth in ridership....so people start believing there is no demand.......compared to other GO lines it has a tremendous opportunity for growth as it serves Weston, Rexdale, North Mississauga, Brampton and Georgetown.......but you and GO are right.....giving all day service to the 54k people in Milton should be a priority over delivering it to the 434k in Brampton.

Give 'em poor enough service (on any transit line) and demand and ridership soon become the same thing!!!

 

[CDL.TO]

Perhaps they do, but their antics have scared everyone shitless, and even though it was the first of the GO projects to be funded, I expect it will be the last one built, because of the militancy of the residents. The amount of headaches and pain that exists for staff working on that project must be incredible - no wonder they'd rather deal with other projects first.

What GO project was funded? The only upgrade planned for the line was for Blue 22, which proposed no real service improvements to GO service. This is the issue.

Propose an upgrade that actually improves the situation for residents of Weston, Brampton, and Vaughan, and not just for $25-paying business travellers, and watch the militancy disappear. Propose a plan to split a community in two with absolutely no benefits and watch that militancy continue.

 

[unimaginative2]

I agree that the Weston residents group supports more local transit, but you can't run 15 minute frequencies with grade crossings like that. Something's going to have to give.

 

[nfitz]

I agree that the Weston residents group supports more local transit, but you can't run 15 minute frequencies with grade crossings like that. Something's going to have to give.

Agreed. Can't be any level crossings, particularly dangerous if more than 2 tracks. And once every 15-minute is only the proposed GO frequency, ultimately the airport express could be the same, plus the occasional VIA train. So with both directions there would be on average one passing every 4 minutes mid-day with more in rush hour.

And if they ever were to run a subway along there as well, ultimately on a 3-minute frequency, then you are looking at a train passing almost once a minute.

I hope your right that there would be no objections to this, and this is really what they want. Somehow I have my doubts that there wouldn't be another group starting to complain though - we saw two different groups in different sides of the St. Clair debate.

 

[CDL.TO]

What was so absurd about the previously proposed grade separation was that only the 2 current GO Georgetown line tracks were going to be lowered below grade (for use by Blue 22). The CP tracks to Bolton would have remained with level crossings, as would any future additional tracks. Looking at that, it seemed a clear admission that not a single thought was being given to GO improvements or future needs.

The group behind the Blue 22 project were allowed to do the EA for their own project and as a result attempted to push though a half-assed proposal. The bias was right out in the open; can you blame people for seeing the whole process as corrupt? Ultimately it all proved to be unworkable.

The whole thing was a cockup, and it wasn't a surprise to anyone who followed the proceedings that it all fell apart in the end. It's sad that people have pinned blame on the residents of Weston. The wider-ranging IEA was done instead... admittedly I'm not sure what the conclusions of that study are.

 

[nfitz]

The wider-ranging IEA was done instead... admittedly I'm not sure what the conclusions of that study are.

They haven't started yet. The conclusion was that there are a lot better places in the GTA for GO to spend their efforts. The province has been sitting on the TOR for the IEA for 2 years now, and nothing happens until they approve it.

 

[TOareaFan]

What really shocked me was the MOE's absolute refusal to even deal with the terms of reference of the EA.

Either reject it, amend it or pass it.......what that looked like to me was a liberal government at Queen's Park intentionally stalling a federally sponsored project.

I am, in no way, saying they had/have to just agree with the feds but to just sit on the terms of reference and not respond is irresponsible....they should have at least dealt with the TOR for the EA....one way or the other.

 

[CDL.TO]

They haven't started yet. The conclusion was that there are a lot better places in the GTA for GO to spend their efforts. The province has been sitting on the TOR for the IEA for 2 years now, and nothing happens until they approve it.

Ah yes. Now I remember. Thanks.

So the whole thing continues to be a cockup.

 

[nfitz]

Either reject it, amend it or pass it.......what that looked like to me was a liberal government at Queen's Park intentionally stalling a federally sponsored project.

Why use the word liberal? The federal government was Liberal as well as the province.

 

[TOareaFan]

Why use the word liberal? The federal government was Liberal as well as the province.

yes...I had typed liberal in the provincial thinking that it was a tory government that had sponsored the Blue22 thing then remembered it wasn't and forgot to go back and delete the first party reference....sorry.

It actually makes it worse.....if we can't even get the provincial and federal governments working together when the same party is in power at each level what hope do we have when it is different parties.

so it was simply, one level of government having a different priority than the other and the way they block it is by simply letting the thing gather dust on their desk.

like I said.....deal with it one way or the other!!!