Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[syn]

Scarborough council had little choice because it was either the SRT with the province paying an unprecedented 75% of it plus any cost overruns, or nothing.

They not only had a choice, they asked the province to explore using the technology when they visited the ICTS facility.

 

[11th]

Transit City would have had a much easier ride if Miller didn't attempt to use LRT to kill subway expansion on Sheppard East with a linear transfer, as one of the plans first priorities. Dunno if that was his idea or the casting couch expert he had, but it was politically boneheaded. Especially, with Mk II offered up to a Scarborough already fed up with the SRT.

Should have launched with Eglinton. And should have pushed for conversion of Sheppard.

Or just stuck with what was planned. I doubt the provincial Liberals would've said no when they started handing out funds.

 

[robmausser]

Transit City would have had a much easier ride if Miller didn't attempt to use LRT to kill subway expansion on Sheppard East with a linear transfer, as one of the plans first priorities. Dunno if that was his idea or the casting couch expert he had, but it was politically boneheaded. Especially, with Mk II offered up to a Scarborough already fed up with the SRT.

Should have launched with Eglinton. And should have pushed for conversion of Sheppard.

Also would have had an easier ride if they left the plan to refurbish and extend the SRT alone, rather than convert to LRT.

The choice to cancel the planned refurbishment of the SRT ICTS technology, which was the TTC's preferred option, is what opened the whole LRT/Subway debate for Scarborough.

 

[Towered]

Transit City would have had a much easier ride if Miller didn't attempt to use LRT to kill subway expansion on Sheppard East with a linear transfer, as one of the plans first priorities. Dunno if that was his idea or the casting couch expert he had, but it was politically boneheaded. Especially, with Mk II offered up to a Scarborough already fed up with the SRT.

Should have launched with Eglinton. And should have pushed for conversion of Sheppard.

Miller's biggest mistake with Transit City was not including any subway expansion. It should have been an ironclad mix, but he left his political flank exposed by going all-in exclusively on LRT and his opponents took full advantage, setting back transit expansion even further.

 

[nfitz]

Miller's biggest mistake with Transit City was not including any subway expansion. It should have been an ironclad mix, but he left his political flank exposed by going all-in exclusively on LRT and his opponents took full advantage, setting back transit expansion even further.

This isn't true - Miller in his first term pushed subway expansion, but couldn't get any traction, other than the Spadina extension. In his second term he got the Spadina extension moving, and started the Downtown Relief Line studies, pushing the province to commit to including it much earlier than originally planned.

Transit City didn't preclude subways ... it was a focus on suburban routes and existing streetcar infrastructure, where subway capacity wasn't necessary. The one exception was the Don Mills line south of Eglinton, where they made it very clear that they were evaluating other technologies, and as the study advanced, it became clear that even the stretch from Eglinton to Danforth was going to have to be something higher than on-surface LRT.

Miller's mistake - if any - was pushing Sheppard subway extension during his first term, rather than switching to LRT earlier.

The subsequent delays by the McGuinty government, and the complete incompetence under Rob Ford are what set transit expansion back.

 

[Rainforest]

This isn't true - Miller in his first term pushed subway expansion, but couldn't get any traction, other than the Spadina extension. In his second term he got the Spadina extension moving, and started the Downtown Relief Line studies, pushing the province to commit to including it much earlier than originally planned.

Transit City didn't preclude subways ... it was a focus on suburban routes and existing streetcar infrastructure, where subway capacity wasn't necessary. The one exception was the Don Mills line south of Eglinton, where they made it very clear that they were evaluating other technologies, and as the study advanced, it became clear that even the stretch from Eglinton to Danforth was going to have to be something higher than on-surface LRT.

Miller's mistake - if any - was pushing Sheppard subway extension during his first term, rather than switching to LRT earlier.

The subsequent delays by the McGuinty government, and the complete incompetence under Rob Ford are what set transit expansion back.

Of course Transit City didn't preclude subways; the problem is that it didn't include any subways, or any BRT.

The plan wasn't bad overall, but it would go smoother if it had a mix of technologies, instead of LRT exclusively.

 

[ARG1]

This isn't true - Miller in his first term pushed subway expansion, but couldn't get any traction, other than the Spadina extension. In his second term he got the Spadina extension moving, and started the Downtown Relief Line studies, pushing the province to commit to including it much earlier than originally planned.

Transit City didn't preclude subways ... it was a focus on suburban routes and existing streetcar infrastructure, where subway capacity wasn't necessary. The one exception was the Don Mills line south of Eglinton, where they made it very clear that they were evaluating other technologies, and as the study advanced, it became clear that even the stretch from Eglinton to Danforth was going to have to be something higher than on-surface LRT.

Miller's mistake - if any - was pushing Sheppard subway extension during his first term, rather than switching to LRT earlier.

The subsequent delays by the McGuinty government, and the complete incompetence under Rob Ford are what set transit expansion back.

Strong disagree. Miller's entire LRT plan made very little sense in many areas. Not switching Sheppard Subway to LRT earlier wasn't a mistake, it shouldn't have been done at all, and certain corridors like Eglinton shouldn't have been LRTs either. If Sheppard and Eglinton were subways, or a light metro in the case of the latter, Transit City would've been far more protected.

 

[nfitz]

Of course Transit City didn't preclude subways; the problem is that it didn't include any subways, or any BRT.

I'm not sure where you are getting that from.

The Transit City Bus Plan is still on the TTC's website - http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Com...gust_26_2009/Reports/Transit_City_Bus_Pla.pdf

How did the Bus plan not include BRT?

Strong disagree. Miller's entire LRT plan made very little sense in many areas. Not switching Sheppard Subway to LRT earlier wasn't a mistake, it shouldn't have been done at all, and certain corridors like Eglinton shouldn't have been LRTs either. If Sheppard and Eglinton were subways, or a light metro in the case of the latter, Transit City would've been far more protected.

And yet two of the original seven Transit city lines are already under construction, two more are being planned (Scarborough East and Waterfront). That leaves Sheppard, Jane, and Don Mills. The city is still talking about Jane (aka Line 8). I don't see subway ever getting to Meadowvale on Sheppard, and the city is still talking about extending the Scarborough East line so it runs on Sheppard as well. And while Don Mills is quiet ... I wouldn't be surprised if LRT runs on Don Mills one day north of Eglinton or Lawrence.

 

[Rainforest]

I'm not sure where you are getting that from.

The Transit City Bus Plan is still on the TTC's website - http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Com...gust_26_2009/Reports/Transit_City_Bus_Pla.pdf

How did the Bus plan not include BRT?

And yet two of the original seven Transit city lines are already under construction, two more are being planned (Scarborough East and Waterfront). That leaves Sheppard, Jane, and Don Mills. The city is still talking about Jane (aka Line 8). I don't see subway ever getting to Meadowvale on Sheppard, and the city is still talking about extending the Scarborough East line so it runs on Sheppard as well. And while Don Mills is quiet ... I wouldn't be surprised if LRT runs on Don Mills one day north of Eglinton or Lawrence.

Well, it was published a couple of years later than the LRT plan

But, technically yes, the bus options weren't utterly neglected.

 

[Coolstar]

And yet two of the original seven Transit city lines are already under construction, two more are being planned (Scarborough East and Waterfront). That leaves Sheppard, Jane, and Don Mills. The city is still talking about Jane (aka Line 8). I don't see subway ever getting to Meadowvale on Sheppard, and the city is still talking about extending the Scarborough East line so it runs on Sheppard as well. And while Don Mills is quiet ... I wouldn't be surprised if LRT runs on Don Mills one day north of Eglinton or Lawrence.

Why LRT north of Eglinton? When we have the Ontario Line that could be extended north instead.

 

[afransen]

Transit City didn't preclude subways ... it was a focus on suburban routes and existing streetcar infrastructure, where subway capacity wasn't necessary. The one exception was the Don Mills line south of Eglinton, where they made it very clear that they were evaluating other technologies, and as the study advanced, it became clear that even the stretch from Eglinton to Danforth was going to have to be something higher than on-surface LRT.

Miller's mistake - if any - was pushing Sheppard subway extension during his first term, rather than switching to LRT earlier.

Suburbs are more spread out than dense urban areas, so speed becomes more important. The big mistake we made was trying to apply a mode that works well in compact areas (streetcar/LRT) for local trips to cross-suburb transportation. Anything meant to address longer distance trips (10km) should be fully grade separated. We can't afford expansive subway expansion, so that means using existing rail ROWs (GO RER) for surface routes, and elevated for suburban arterials that can't be served well with rail ROWs.

 

[afransen]

Why LRT north of Eglinton? When we have the Ontario Line that could be extended north instead.

Would be especially crazy since LRT will likely cost about as much as just extending OL as elevated line.

I don't see subway ever getting to Meadowvale on Sheppard, and the city is still talking about extending the Scarborough East line so it runs on Sheppard as well.

Sheppard doesn't have a lot of potential that far east. Sheppard (in whatever form it takes), should connect down to SCC, and perhaps continue east on Ellesmere to UTSC. Ideally, convert Sheppard to a light metro rolling stock more suited to elevation and tighter turning radius to give a single-seat ride from SCC to NYCC. Sheppard east of McCowan could maybe use bus priority lanes. Can't see much more being justified.

 

[nfitz]

Well, it was published a couple of years later than the LRT plan

But, technically yes, the bus options weren't utterly neglected.

And yet the LRT plan was published a couple of years after the original TTC Transit City presentation, which discussed all the modes.

You act like work on Spadina stopped when they came up with the LRT plan. It didn't. Nor did work on the LRT when they published the bus plan.

Why LRT north of Eglinton? When we have the Ontario Line that could be extended north instead.

Because the demand is very low north of Lawrence. We also don't know the alignment of the Ontario Line. If it takes over the Richmond Hill GO Line north of Lawrence (which was one of the TTC proposals ... I wouldn't be surprised if Metrolinx were even more keen on this), then that leaves room for an LRT on Don Mills, north of that point - or at least north of Sheppard.

Suburbs are more spread out than dense urban areas, so speed becomes more important. The big mistake we made was trying to apply a mode that works well in compact areas (streetcar/LRT) for local trips to cross-suburb transportation. Anything meant to address longer distance trips (10km) should be fully grade separated. We can't afford expansive subway expansion, so that means using existing rail ROWs (GO RER) for surface routes, and elevated for suburban arterials that can't be served well with rail ROWs.

Grade separation isn't the primary controller of speed. It's station distance and traffic. Even the Danforth night bus is faster than the subway - because few get on or off east of Jarvis.

 

[afransen]

Grade separation isn't the primary controller of speed. It's station distance and traffic. Even the Danforth night bus is faster than the subway - because few get on or off east of Jarvis.

Also a night bus, with little traffic to compete with. Is a bus even fast if no one uses it?

Grade separation helps with worst case speed (the 'not late for work' factor) from delays caused by collisions/disruptions and supports lower headways (lower avg delay) without bunching caused by traffic signals.

 

[Rainforest]

And yet the LRT plan was published a couple of years after the original TTC Transit City presentation, which discussed all the modes.

You act like work on Spadina stopped when they came up with the LRT plan. It didn't. Nor did work on the LRT when they published the bus plan.

If you meticulously dig through all the fine prints, then you can legitimately claim that all technologies were on the books and none was neglected.

But that's not how the public perception is formed. 99% of the voters read newspaper front pages, listen to the broadcasts, follow what's trending in the electronic media. They don't shuffle through a 40-page report to discover technology X mentioned on Page 24.

From that perspective, it was all about LRT in 2007-2008, and then briefly about Bus lanes in addition to LRT in 2009. Obviously, the work on Spadina subway did not stop, but noone considered that as a part of the future plan, as it was well underway.