SmartTrack (Proposed)

[TheTigerMaster]

I don't like SmartTrack because it's going to make people increasingly cynical about transit politics in Toronto. Many voters will feel rightfully betrayed by Tory, because he sold them something he and his critics knew could not be implemented. It may make it very difficult to implement transit policy moving forward.

Transit planning needs to be de-politicized. SmartTrack was a step in the wrong direction.

 

[salsa]

Is Anything Left of SmartTrack?

http://stevemunro.ca/2016/03/09/is-anything-left-of-smarttrack/

I don't like SmartTrack because it's going to make people increasingly cynical about transit politics in Toronto. Many voters will feel rightfully betrayed by Tory, because he sold them something he and his critics knew could not be implemented.

This is what he promised:

This is what actually happened.

 

[Rainforest]

If SmartTrack boils down to just a bit more frequent GO RER service with cheaper fares within 416, then how can it compete with Scarborough Subway for the riders?

SSE must be back on the table, with 3 or 4 stops as originally thought.

But then we might lose the Eglinton - Kingston LRT, aka Crosstown East. Or, at least it will have to wait for the next round of funding.

 

[kEiThZ]

@Rainforest

I would think you'll see Lawrence East move back to subway. That's the only change really necessary. I don't see Crosstown East imperilled at all. Any reduction in the scope of Smart Track frees up money to pay for that second subway station and keeps Crosstown East intact.

In fact, if John Tory pulls off the above, it'll be yuuuugge! He'll have accelerated Crosstown East while fixing some of the issues with that line (not maintaining through service on Eglinton at Kennedy). He'll also have delivered subway service to Scarborough Centre eliminating the long standing transfer complaint about Kennedy. And he'll have added service closer to hospital on Lawrence.

All that should buy peace in Scarborough for a while to come. Should even make LRT on Sheppard more palatable...especially after Eglinton comes online.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

@gweed123

Exactly. I love Smart Track because it gets people talking about having a proper transit network. It's ridiculous how we see transit in Toronto. We see GO as exclusively reponsible for transporting 905ers using heavy rail (mostly) and we see subway as exclusively the purview of Torontonians (TYSSE being the small exception). This is not how you build and operate a proper transport network. Even guys like Steve Munro are so wedded to this paradigm that he can't see past it to a truly integrated regional network.

If all Smart Track does is force GO to offer fare integration to TTC riders, more stops in Toronto and more frequent service, I'll be happy and John Tory will have my vote again.

Really well said. I think RER/SmartTrack is going to fundamentally change what GO is and, by extension, force everyone to rethink all the problems that have been in front of their eyes the whole time. Munro is a perfect example. The man unquestionably has an encyclopedic knowledge. But if he was the world's leading expert on trees, he still wouldn't know jack about forests, if you see what I'm saying. My theory - maybe I've said it before - is that the main reason he hates Metrolinx with such a passion is because they're starting to do his job, which is telling the TTC how to run transit properly.

If SmartTrack gets whittled down to some subset of RER or even disappears completely, I guess Tory should still get points for making people go, "Oh, wait - I can ride a BIG train, even in Toronto? We can use all those tracks for that?"

 

[TheTigerMaster]

@Rainforest

I would think you'll see Lawrence East move back to subway. That's the only change really necessary. I don't see Crosstown East imperilled at all. Any reduction in the scope of Smart Track frees up money to pay for that second subway station and keeps Crosstown East intact.

In fact, if John Tory pulls off the above, it'll be yuuuugge! He'll have accelerated Crosstown East while fixing some of the issues with that line (not maintaining through service on Eglinton at Kennedy). He'll also have delivered subway service to Scarborough Centre eliminating the long standing transfer complaint about Kennedy. And he'll have added service closer to hospital on Lawrence.

All that should buy peace in Scarborough for a while to come. Should even make LRT on Sheppard more palatable...especially after Eglinton comes online.

Adding back lawrence east will cost 200 or 300 million. If SmartTrack's scope is reduced from Steeles down to Kennedy, it might be able to pay for a station at Lawrence East. I hope you're right. This would be a great outcome.

 

[Tewder]

I just mentioned this in another thread. Liberals are tied with PCs, and the Liberals haven't even begun hammering Brown on social issues yet. When they do, it'll be game over for the PCs, unless they make a big ideological shift to the centre.

Toronto suffers by being so blindly partisan to one party: The liberals know they have Toronto support sewn up (just throw out a few feel-good social messages and it's hook, line and sinker) and the Conservatives know they don't stand much chance in the city so they pander to the suburbs. The end result is the same either way, no funding for the city as political funds are redirected to more lucrative ends.

It's time for Toronto to grow up and move on. Just how many social issues remain issues in Ontario anymore that it's worth tying our hands politically in this way? The Conservatives are never going to reverse policies on gay marriage or ban abortion or force the Orange Order on anybody or whatever. Even mean old Harper - who we were told by liberals for decades to fear - didn't dismantle social progressiveness in Canada. In fact, same-sex marriage became law under them. No, it's time to realize when we are being manipulated.

I do absolutely agree in added revenue tools for the city of Toronto. In addition though, the only real way to entice funding and political largesse is to make the parties vie for it. We have been doing the exact opposite and we can see the results in the crumbling infrastructure, the gridlock and transit deficits etc. In other words, if the Toronto electorate were a hockey team we'd be the Maple Leafs (appropriately), which is to say taken advantage of for our unwavering support and blind fandom all the while receiving little in return but empty promises and propaganda. Wash, rinse, repeat.

 

[Palma]

To be honest, I'm glad SmartTrack existed, because it got people talking about a 3rd option compared to the traditional subway vs LRT debate. As a plan it was poorly executed, but as a general service pattern it was and remains a pretty good idea.

The provincial Liberals put RER into the transit mix for the GTHA in the provincial election, and Tory put RER into the transit mix in the municipal election. Before SmartTrack, RER was 'a Provincial thing', and wasn't really being considered as a potential solution for Toronto. Now the Toronto-centric RER service pattern is being seriously investigated.

As many of you know, I was an advocate for RER/GO REX/S-Bahnification well before it was seriously brought to the table in 2014, so I'm really glad that it's actually being considered, instead of being a "yeah whatever, now let's get back to talking about subways and LRTs" talking point.

I agree

 

[Palma]

Call me crazy, but I actually think the Wynne Liberals will win another majority in 2018 allowing all of these transit plans to remain intact.

The main ingredients of Wynne's support base are progressives and millennials. Wynne's progressive credentials were damaged by the teachers strikes and the Hydro One fallout, which was the root cause of the decline in her approval rating from its mid-to-late 2014 honeymoon. Both those things are now behind her. Furthermore, thanks to the sudden boost the provincial economy is getting from the falling dollar/falling oil prices, there's suddenly no need for any real austerity measures anymore. We saw that in the 2016 budget with the spending freeze broken and hospitals given a funding boost, and with candy thrown to progressives like the student aid overhaul.

I expect the NDP to continue its decline to irrelevance, for the PCs to suffer from internal chaos over the competing forces of the base and those who want to moderate the party (we're already seeing a taste of this with the carbon tax file), and the Liberals to re-energize their appeal to progressives. Plus as the provincial economy continues to improve, and the Liberals head into the 2018 campaign with reduced unemployment rates and a balanced budget. All four factors will allow the Liberals to win another narrow majority.

The only thing I can see stopping this is if the PC Party actually succeeds in moderating itself while retaining its grassroots support among its largely rural base (critical to its funding, volunteer army, and GOTV efforts).

By 2018 Kathleen Wynne will be 65 years old, so if re-elected to another majority term she'll probably retire towards the end of it, around 2021 or so.

well i hope the notion that Ontarians vote for different parties to be in power holds so that now that the liberals are in power federally its the PC who will get elected in Ontario. Thats the first thing i thought about when the Liberals won federally

 

[Palma]

Yeah, Ontario is usually a Liberal stronghold, so it will take a lot to dethrone them. Notice the Liberals are doing all these unfavorable things like Cap and Trade tax and selling Hydro One right now. They won't doing this come 2017 and leading up to the election in 2018 - general voters have short term memory. What voters may see in 2018 is shovels in the ground for the transit projects, new hospitals etc and that will attract voters.

PC were in power from 1942 to 1986. You gotta know your history

 

[Palma]

I just mentioned this in another thread. Liberals are tied with PCs, and the Liberals haven't even begun hammering Brown on social issues yet. When they do, it'll be game over for the PCs, unless they make a big ideological shift to the centre.

It also should be noted to that economic indicators are strong, going into the 2018 election. Unemployment is at the lowest level since the 90s, debt to GDP ratio is decreasing, the budget is well on it's way to being balanced. This'll make it very difficult for the PCs to say the Liberals are mismanaging the economy.

because social issues are what people vote for when they do not have a job? Boy you sound very naive. Even with a job, the majority do not vote for a party on social issues

 

[Palma]

Adding back lawrence east will cost 200 or 300 million. If SmartTrack's scope is reduced from Steeles down to Kennedy, it might be able to pay for a station at Lawrence East. I hope you're right. This would be a great outcome.

I am pretty sure back in feb at council meetings and presentation re: transit, it showed SmartTrack reduced and starting along the Danforth. This is not new. Why do i keep seeing people provide links to news we already knew about

 

[Rainforest]

@Rainforest

I would think you'll see Lawrence East move back to subway. That's the only change really necessary. I don't see Crosstown East imperilled at all. Any reduction in the scope of Smart Track frees up money to pay for that second subway station and keeps Crosstown East intact.

In fact, if John Tory pulls off the above, it'll be yuuuugge! He'll have accelerated Crosstown East while fixing some of the issues with that line (not maintaining through service on Eglinton at Kennedy). He'll also have delivered subway service to Scarborough Centre eliminating the long standing transfer complaint about Kennedy. And he'll have added service closer to hospital on Lawrence.

All that should buy peace in Scarborough for a while to come. Should even make LRT on Sheppard more palatable...especially after Eglinton comes online.

I hope you are right. Let's see what comes out of it.

 

[1overcosc]

PC were in power from 1942 to 1986. You gotta know your history

1943 to 1985. Sorry, had to straighten that out

The PCs of the John Robarts and Bill Davis era were moderates who formed "big tents" of support. In that sense, the Liberals are the modern equivalent of the PCs from those days.

 

[1overcosc]

because social issues are what people vote for when they do not have a job? sound very naive

Not really, but as TheTigerMaster pointed out, the economic indicators are looking very good for Ontario right now. It's hard to kick out a party in good economic times.