Transportfan
Senior Member
If planting jungles are your thing, then yes. I find landscaping has become excessive and deliberately poorly-maintained in recent years.
Will be lipstick on a pig amid the aforementioned jungle.
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YRT/Viva Construction Thread (Rapidways, Terminals)
- Thread starter waterloowarrior
- Start date
If planting jungles are your thing, then yes. I find landscaping has become excessive and deliberately poorly-maintained in recent years.
Will be lipstick on a pig amid the aforementioned jungle.
Electrify
Senior Member
WTH.....ddnt somebody report earlier that it was far from done....did they suddenly go 24/7 work?! either way its good news....they are early by 2 days from what they posted
on their schedule
That was me, and I sure as hell am surprised myself to hear that it is running! I thought for sure they would announce a delay, or at least have it running at the end of December rather than the beginning.
I'm guessing that a lot of the work involved out of the view infrastructure work, rather than the construction on the line itself. That, and they must have crunched like hell over the last few weeks!
Electrify
Senior Member
I don't think it will be like Sheppard, though the comparisons are clearly obvious as they both operate between similar longitudes but at different latitudes.
The main problem with Sheppard is that the infrastructure is too heavy for the density and urban form of its surroundings. Its ridership numbers would be great for a B/LRT, and an argument could be made that they would even be sustainable for a subway with funding from higher levels of government.
Davis has the opposite problem. While the line is well designed for its surroundings, of which are more mixed use and higher density than Sheppard pre-subway, I think it will take more of an attitude shift towards transit to change things. A coworker of mine who lives up there was going on about how they are "forcing people on to the bus." People up there are too used to driving, and it will take time to change habits.
That said, Davis is arguably the first urban rapid right of way in the GTA. St. Clair and Spadina/Queens Quay are not "rapid," and though increasing in density, Highway 7 still feels more like a suburban arterial rather than an urban street. And despite what some may claim, Davis' traffic was hell long before the BRT construction. Perhaps I am being overly optimistic, but in a year I could see the route getting high ridership at all times of day.
I'll try and get some video of the route in the next week or so.
Electrify
Senior Member
So I went up that way around the lunch hour yesterday to check it out.
First there were only two passengers on the bus, including myself. Bring midday I suppose it is understandable that ridership would be low though.
Second, and perhaps most shocking, is that the lanes aren't even protected from other traffic! While it seemed other cars did get the message, there is nothing to stop a driver from using the lane if they so wish. Considering the time and effort to construct this, such a design is very underwhelming.
Despite this, the performance of the route was pretty good overall. I'll upload the video later, but it took about 8-10 minutes to get from Newmarket terminal to the end of the busway, depending on when you want to start counting. There was not much opportunity for the lane to show off since traffic on Davis was light during this period, but it did help it keep up with traffic. It also provides a much needed reliability and service boost to the avenue.
Returning I caught a regular YRT bus at Leslie, and while I am not sure which route it was or where it originated from, it turned onto Davis from coming from north on Leslie. The bus was well filled, about 20 people I estimate. There was a sizable passenger turnover near the hospital, and about half the bus got off at the mall one stop before the terminal.
While I do support BRT, I hate to admit it, but this really seems like a vanity project. The money could have been much better spent adding standard curbside Viva stops, and standard HOV or curbside bus lanes would have meant passengers would not have to guess at whether they should catch a standard bus by the curb or a Viva in the middle. Perhaps even skip the lane, and use the money for grade separation at the train tracks to make GO RER more possible up to Newmarket.
The only logic I can see for it at the moment is that it is cheaper and easier to build it now than when the avenue gets built up. Otherwise while it may not be as much of a boondoggle as Sheppard, it certainly is a boondoggle.
First there were only two passengers on the bus, including myself. Bring midday I suppose it is understandable that ridership would be low though.
Second, and perhaps most shocking, is that the lanes aren't even protected from other traffic! While it seemed other cars did get the message, there is nothing to stop a driver from using the lane if they so wish. Considering the time and effort to construct this, such a design is very underwhelming.
Despite this, the performance of the route was pretty good overall. I'll upload the video later, but it took about 8-10 minutes to get from Newmarket terminal to the end of the busway, depending on when you want to start counting. There was not much opportunity for the lane to show off since traffic on Davis was light during this period, but it did help it keep up with traffic. It also provides a much needed reliability and service boost to the avenue.
Returning I caught a regular YRT bus at Leslie, and while I am not sure which route it was or where it originated from, it turned onto Davis from coming from north on Leslie. The bus was well filled, about 20 people I estimate. There was a sizable passenger turnover near the hospital, and about half the bus got off at the mall one stop before the terminal.
While I do support BRT, I hate to admit it, but this really seems like a vanity project. The money could have been much better spent adding standard curbside Viva stops, and standard HOV or curbside bus lanes would have meant passengers would not have to guess at whether they should catch a standard bus by the curb or a Viva in the middle. Perhaps even skip the lane, and use the money for grade separation at the train tracks to make GO RER more possible up to Newmarket.
The only logic I can see for it at the moment is that it is cheaper and easier to build it now than when the avenue gets built up. Otherwise while it may not be as much of a boondoggle as Sheppard, it certainly is a boondoggle.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Most of people here think that bus lanes on Centre Street in Thornhill are a good idea.
Then, why not on Davis Drive?
If the new bus lanes are underused, this suggests a poor route structure rather than that the bus lanes should not have been built. Instead of running a short separate VIVA route that only a few riders have a chance to use, they could direct regular VRT route via the busway for a portion of their trip, and make it a local busway with more frequent stops.
Then, why not on Davis Drive?
If the new bus lanes are underused, this suggests a poor route structure rather than that the bus lanes should not have been built. Instead of running a short separate VIVA route that only a few riders have a chance to use, they could direct regular VRT route via the busway for a portion of their trip, and make it a local busway with more frequent stops.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
The local residents around Centre want the lanes about as much as the businesses on Davis loved the construction there
I think people get too hung up on ridership and routes, especially at launch. The purpose of Viva is to reduce traffic and foster intensification. The presence of 20 riders the day it opens doesn't mean much for either. I haven't been on that stretch of road a million times but I know it well enough to say that, along with the adjacent stretch of Yonge Street, it's the closest thing to an urban corridor between the Oak Ridges Moraine and Barrie. Newmarket is developing a jobs centre around the hospital and the west end is in the Urban Growth Centre. There's a lot of 50s-style plazas and car dealerships begging to be redeveloped but it's going to take a bit of time. In the meantime, it's improved a pretty rough streetscape by a lot.
I feel like the kneerjerk reaction to any transit project in any suburb (and that includes within 416) is, "Why?! Isn't X needed more?!" You have to look at it in the context of the larger picture of the entire Viva system and the York Region OP. It would be nice if every transit project had so much latent demand it was packed on opening day, but that's not always the point.
It's too bad that the Province is stopping RER on the Barrie line at Aurora. That Davis Dr section of Rapidway would have made a nice connector to a Newmarket GO RER terminus.
Rainforest
Senior Member
It shouldn't be too difficult to extend RER to Newmarket a few years after it starts running to Aurora.
Bojaxs
Active Member
Are there any signs of development going up, because of this BRT?
innsertnamehere
Superstar
lots of it along yonge street in richmond hill. In Newmarket, not really.
salsa
Senior Member
Rainforest
Senior Member
In a large urban area like GTA, you will rarely see any development because of BRT or LRT.
Maybe because of subway in some cases, but even that is not guaranteed. Many of the BD and Spadina subway stations see little development in the vicinity of them.
When you have many locations well served by transit, there is no exclusivity in any new line you might build, and therefore no strong insentive for developers to go next to your new line and not anywhere else. Of course, if the location is appealing due to other factors, good transit is a bonus; but is not the primary driver.
The primary role of transit in areas like GTA is to support development, which would occur more or less regardless of transit but the residents / employees would have no choice but to drive if there was no good transit.
Areas around King West and Queen West are booming, and the fact that they have streecar service certainly helps; it would be very difficult to serve the new demand with just buses. But we can't say that they are booming because of streecars. Many other areas, along Dundas, College / Carlton, and even Queen East, see much less development even though they have streecars as well.
The concerns about Waterfront East LRT (currently unfunded) is that the future residents of Don lands will be pushed to driving if they do not have high-capacity transit; but not that the development will not occur without transit. It will occur regardless.
Note: the relation between local transit and development is different in smaller cities. There, once you build the first-ever LRT or BRT line that has guaranteed service every 10 min, and it replaces a bus that was running every 30 min, the new line can actually prompt development. Locations served by the new line gain a material advantage over all other locations.
Maybe because of subway in some cases, but even that is not guaranteed. Many of the BD and Spadina subway stations see little development in the vicinity of them.
When you have many locations well served by transit, there is no exclusivity in any new line you might build, and therefore no strong insentive for developers to go next to your new line and not anywhere else. Of course, if the location is appealing due to other factors, good transit is a bonus; but is not the primary driver.
The primary role of transit in areas like GTA is to support development, which would occur more or less regardless of transit but the residents / employees would have no choice but to drive if there was no good transit.
Areas around King West and Queen West are booming, and the fact that they have streecar service certainly helps; it would be very difficult to serve the new demand with just buses. But we can't say that they are booming because of streecars. Many other areas, along Dundas, College / Carlton, and even Queen East, see much less development even though they have streecars as well.
The concerns about Waterfront East LRT (currently unfunded) is that the future residents of Don lands will be pushed to driving if they do not have high-capacity transit; but not that the development will not occur without transit. It will occur regardless.
Note: the relation between local transit and development is different in smaller cities. There, once you build the first-ever LRT or BRT line that has guaranteed service every 10 min, and it replaces a bus that was running every 30 min, the new line can actually prompt development. Locations served by the new line gain a material advantage over all other locations.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
The area around the hospital has seen a decent amount of (re)development in the past few years, I think. The corridor itself has largely been in turmoil since the construction started and I think it's really earmarked more for commercial than anything else. Yonge Street is where they're really aiming for intensification. As far as I know, Slessor Square is the only major project to come in so far.
(If I was a developer, I'd love to own that plaza right on the north-east corner of Davis and Yonge. It's just crap, but it's also massive.
(If I was a developer, I'd love to own that plaza right on the north-east corner of Davis and Yonge. It's just crap, but it's also massive.
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wilson_wu
Active Member
Just watching this video of Viva Purple and can't help but notice that a majority of the Viva stations are surrounded by undeveloped land. What are the plans for these lands? Are they just sitting there waiting to be bought by someone?
Chalmers Road Station 00:29 Giant field
Leslie Street Station 03:55 Giant field
East Beaver Creek Station 4:45 Giant field
Allstate Parkway Station 8:24 Giant field
Woodbine Avenue Station 9:05 Field
Town Centre Station 12:05 Giant field
I can't help but feel like this line has real potential for high ridership if all of this would be developed. Does this line have the potential of building or even eclipsing Viva Blue's ridership in the future?
cplchanb
Senior Member
I believe these lands were purchased decades ago and is just waiting for development to start