Toronto/Montreal comparisons (ain't pretty...)

[Electrify]

Last week I took a holiday in Montreal. I had never been to the city, but always wanted to go. From an urban planning standpoint, I also wanted to see how it compared to Toronto, and what it did differently.

During my trip I blogged about my experiences and observations on my Facebook. I thought it would be interesting to share them with people on this forum:

At Union Station on board the train to Montreal, waiting to depart.
July 11 at 9:22am via Android

On the Via train. So far the top speed reached was 99 mph (159 km/h). So close to the sweet 100...
July 11 at 10:36am via Android

Going 162km/h, broke the 100mph mark!
July 11 at 10:53am via Android

‎163
July 11 at 10:57am via Android

In the outskirts of Montreal!
July 11 at 2:07pm via Android

At my hotel, got a little lost from the subway (a city which challenges my sense of direction, remarkable!), which have gorgeous stations BTW. Also, my hotel has FREE INTERNET!
July 11 at 4:16pm

Took a short ride on the subway earlier. Even their shabby looking stations are above and beyond ours. They are much, much warmer than ours though, and the LCD TVs don't mention when the next train is coming.
July 12 at 1:18pm

Update: They do have next arrival times, I just missed it.
July 12 at 5:57pm

Even though the trains are very old compared to ours, they are well maintained and renovated so you would never know. The painted exteriors are a welcome change from the plain steel ones we have. And while more expensive, using rubber tires instead of steel wheels works brilliantly to improve performance and acceleration - which makes perfect sense for the tighter stop spacing that urban rail demands.
July 12 at 1:19pm

Just went for a stroll through Parc du Mont Royal. With its forests and Canadian shield like ridges, it is like a little bit of Muskoka in the heart of the city. Also, the views it provides are nothing short of breathtaking. Pictures coming soon...
July 12 at 6:01pm

On the way back I took a bus through downtown rather than the subway, along a street comparable to University Ave. While Montreal does not have streetcars, they do have articulated buses and reserved bus lanes. The result: a smooth ride for both transit riders and drivers, yet still very friendly for pedestrians and cyclists.

Toronto really could learn a thing or two...
July 12 at 6:06pm

Will give Toronto this though - the buses here REALLY could benefit from air conditioning!
July 12 at 6:07pm

Today went to the observation deck at the Olympic Stadium, and got some more spectacular shots of the city. Afterwards went to the Biosphere Environment Museum, which was very educational and informative on sustainable water usage, energy consumption, and transportation planning.
July 13 at 9:28pm

Also took more pics of the subway, and recorded video of my trip along the Green Line. Tomorrow going to Old Montreal, and then to La Ronde theme park!
July 13 at 9:31pm

Just went by Victoria Square. Not only is it what Dundas Square should be, it shows what a lost opportunity of public space the boulevard down University is. If we put the subway exits in the park like median there, it could have been a grand public space!
July 14 at 10:56am via Android

At La Ronde in line to ride the monorail. I hope it glides as softly as a cloud.
July 14 at 4:34pm via Android

La Ronde theme park is MUCH smaller than Wonderland, and many of its rides are not run as efficiently as they are here (one train operating on a roller coaster rather than two), but it was still a blast! Ontario Place, which wants to renovate and expand, should really take note - as La Ronde is a great example of how to build a quality theme park with limited space.
July 14 at 8:50pm

Old Montreal was simply gorgeous, felt like a little bit of continental Europe in our own backyard. Shame Toronto doesn't try to spruce up and spotlight its old town and historic districts.
July 14 at 8:56pm

Well, we were supposed to get a bridge to Fort York, but Ford killed that because it was "fiscally irresponsible" (cancelling the Sheppard tramway after construction had begun and making the city's police force the highest paid in the continent is okay though).
July 14 at 8:56pm

I think this best summarizes my comparison of Toronto to Montreal. Montreal is like a city in Sim City where everything just seems to be flowing the way you want it to, and is working out nicely. Toronto on the other hand is a city which is lacking in direction, and while there have been attempts to save it, it has become to large and sprawled for its own good.
July 14 at 9:06pm

For example, when I go downtown, I get the sense that most people who live in the heart of the city are 20-something hipsters/hippies who are living there because it is the 'trendy' thing to do. Spending most of my trip downtown, I don't get that same vibe. People who live downtown do because it is simply such a gorgeous and well planned city.
July 14 at 9:10pm

In terms of transportation, we really should look to Montreal on how to build a great city. They have plenty of road infrastructure and congestion isn't too bad, yet the pedestrian, transit, and cycling networks are so attractive they make people WANT to use alternative modes of transportation.
July 14 at 9:16pm

At Central Station in Montreal... 2 hours early!
July 15 at 8:42am via Android

On the train back home. Top recorded speed: 180 km/h (112.5 mph)
July 15 at 1:29pm via Android

In the outskirts of Toronto
July 15 at 4:18pm via Android

Back home sweet home.
July 15 at 7:07pm via Android

 

[Tewder]

Did you get to the Square St. Louis? This really shows off what Montreal has to offer. Simply lovely!

 

[RC8]

Montreal has had nowhere near the amount of pressure and influences Toronto got from the rest of the world. Toronto got the suburb disease from the US, the 'backlit ad' disease from Asia, as well as architectural influences from modern Vancouver, etc.

The one thing Toronto has going for it is that it has some of the most colourful vibrant streets I've seen in the world. In fact, I have never seen anything as vibrant as downtown Toronto that isn't made up mostly out of tourists elsewhere, and I've visited a lot of important cities.

 

[Thanos]

Here we go again, comparisons to other cities. Wow, Torontonians really lack any self confidence.
Yes transit in Montreal is better but even at that we should aim a lot higher.

Even though the trains are very old compared to ours, they are well maintained and renovated so you would never know. The painted exteriors are a welcome change from the plain steel ones we have. And while more expensive, using rubber tires instead of steel wheels works brilliantly to improve performance and acceleration - which makes perfect sense for the tighter stop spacing that urban rail demands.
July 12 at 1:19pm

They keep the train stations fairly clean I'll give them that but to assume the trains are well maintained is ridiculous. The train cars are just as dirty as Toronto's. They break down on a daily basis. Last year one of the cars took off with all of it's doors opened. It's not fun getting stuck in the middle of a tunnel. Try using it in winter with your heavy jacket and see how much weight you'll loose from all the sweat.

Just went for a stroll through Parc du Mont Royal. With its forests and Canadian shield like ridges, it is like a little bit of Muskoka in the heart of the city. Also, the views it provides are nothing short of breathtaking. Pictures coming soon...
July 12 at 6:01pm

High Park is just as beautiful and the ravines throughout Toronto are incredible. They might not be as centrally located and not have the same views.

On the way back I took a bus through downtown rather than the subway, along a street comparable to University Ave. While Montreal does not have streetcars, they do have articulated buses and reserved bus lanes. The result: a smooth ride for both transit riders and drivers, yet still very friendly for pedestrians and cyclists.

Just curious but which street are you referring to?

Will give Toronto this though - the buses here REALLY could benefit from air conditioning!
July 12 at 6:07pm

So can the subway.

Today went to the observation deck at the Olympic Stadium, and got some more spectacular shots of the city. Afterwards went to the Biosphere Environment Museum, which was very educational and informative on sustainable water usage, energy consumption, and transportation planning.
July 13 at 9:28pm

The Toronto Zoo and Science Centre are educational and informative as well though on different topics.

Just went by Victoria Square. Not only is it what Dundas Square should be, it shows what a lost opportunity of public space the boulevard down University is. If we put the subway exits in the park like median there, it could have been a grand public space!
July 14 at 10:56am via Android

Maybe so, however Victoria Square is not used as much. Many prefer Jacques Cartier square in the old Montreal region. It gets some use during the office lunch period but at nights and weekends can sometimes get deserted. Both could use some better planning. YD in the aesthetics department and Victoria in the attracting more pedestrian life.

La Ronde theme park is MUCH smaller than Wonderland, and many of its rides are not run as efficiently as they are here (one train operating on a roller coaster rather than two), but it was still a blast! Ontario Place, which wants to renovate and expand, should really take note - as La Ronde is a great example of how to build a quality theme park with limited space.
July 14 at 8:50pm

Well La Ronde has been in private hands since 2001. Before that it was fairly bland and was in a terrible financial situation. Are you ready to sell off Ontario Place to a private amusement park developer?

Old Montreal was simply gorgeous, felt like a little bit of continental Europe in our own backyard. Shame Toronto doesn't try to spruce up and spotlight its old town and historic districts.
July 14 at 8:56pm

Yes, and this is the one and only area where Montreal excels. Toronto has done a terrible job of showcasing it's great architecture. I remember there was a plan, i think it was last year, to provide better lighting to some of the older architectures in St-Lawrence district. What ever happened with that? I guess it's gravy.

I think this best summarizes my comparison of Toronto to Montreal. Montreal is like a city in Sim City where everything just seems to be flowing the way you want it to, and is working out nicely. Toronto on the other hand is a city which is lacking in direction, and while there have been attempts to save it, it has become to large and sprawled for its own good.
July 14 at 9:06pm

You are way off with this comment. I lived in Montreal for over 2 decades. The old Montreal area is great but the city lacks direction in every other area.

For example, when I go downtown, I get the sense that most people who live in the heart of the city are 20-something hipsters/hippies who are living there because it is the 'trendy' thing to do. Spending most of my trip downtown, I don't get that same vibe. People who live downtown do because it is simply such a gorgeous and well planned city.
July 14 at 9:10pm

How long were you there for? The city of Montreal has barely grown in population. Several of the young people leave for the suburbs. Part of the reason is the low supply of condos compared to rental units. Laval has exploded in population and the West Island is expanding further west to outside the island. The sprawl of the 60s-80s didn't occur then because the city was in a declining period. Downtown Montreal in the 90s was a wasteland, nobody wanted to go there. They've improved but to imply that people live there because it's a beautifully planned city is completely false. Montreal is 20 years behind Toronto on the sprawl but it will get there.

In terms of transportation, we really should look to Montreal on how to build a great city. They have plenty of road infrastructure and congestion isn't too bad, yet the pedestrian, transit, and cycling networks are so attractive they make people WANT to use alternative modes of transportation.
July 14 at 9:16pm

No we shouldn't. Montreal might be slightly better in terms of public transit but we should not set our standard so low. We can do much better than what we have done and what Montreal has done. We're capable of it, you just have to get rid of that defeatist attitude.

Montreal is also in a terrible financial situation. Financially it's by far the worst city in Canada. It's long term debt is more than double that of Toronto's with half the revenue. Let's not forget the crumbling infrastructure, where landlords have been permitted to let their buildings rot and you have huge blocks of concrete or entire underground parking lots and overpasses that collapse.

 

[Tewder]

Let's not forget the crumbling infrastructure, where landlords have been permitted to let their buildings rot and you have huge blocks of concrete or entire underground parking lots and overpasses that collapse.

I'm not sure that you're helping your case with this argument.

 

[Mississauga Slim]

One thing I found about Montreal's subway is that, while the trains and stations are nicer overall, the trains do not run very frequently. You really want to make sure you get the train when it's coming into the station because, if you miss it, you could be waiting a loooong time before the next one comes.

 

[junctionist]

We're quite fortunate to have Montreal as a second city in Canada, city that holds its own against any American city short of New York. I like it more than Chicago. Victoria Square isn't very comparable to Dundas Square in terms of its role. It's a beautiful and polished space, but hard to compare with Dundas Square since it's not meant to be an events-type square at the city's very core. Victoria Square is more like an urban park in an area that's somewhat dull.

Lots of people live in downtown Toronto for its beauty if you go beyond the Queen West scene, with its kilometres and kilometres of shabby streetscapes. (Though the built form tends to be attractive, if often in unsatisfactory condition.) There's something about urban planning in Montreal though that has shown impressive levels of ambition and attention to beauty for many decades as it served its core notion of making the city functional. It's a city that looks like it kept building on its achievements, rather than at one point telling itself its history was worthless and demolishing its greatest landmarks and historical districts. But why be surprised? It was the greatest metropolis of Canada for quite a long time and gained a confident metropolitan attitude much earlier than Toronto.

Today, we have the economy and culture in Toronto to achieve a lot and we should always look for inspiration in the most beautiful metropolises of the world. I wouldn't hesitate to look to Montreal for ideas like how to design a subway station because they truly perfected the art and didn't bankrupt themselves doing so. Our streets are, like in Montreal, proud showcases of what our city has to offer, but I wish our politicians and urban planners would see to it that they be cleaner, and get rid of all the overhead wires, ugly poles, trees in concrete boxes, and concrete sidewalks everywhere. Go for beauty. The plans for the John Street revitalization, for instance, show a sophisticated new public realm but with rather boring grey interlocking pavers rather than something more exuberant.

It's many of those fine details to the look of the city that Montreal has succeeded at, but I like frequent, air conditioned transit, extensive transit networks, light rail and streetcars, diversity on storefront signs, and a Jane Jacobs style of spontaneity in a city's development but with clear and grand central spaces, and culture and design on the most monumental scale. Some of these things we have, some we don't and we can learn things from Montreal of course, but more broadly speaking I think we need to look to the grander cities of the world.

 

[Thanos]

I'm not sure that you're helping your case with this argument.

It's not an argument, it's the way it is in Montreal. Things are improving though very slowly.

http://montreal.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20100305/mtl_garage_collapse_report100305/20100305/?hub=MontrealHome

What that article doesn't say is the hundreds of garages that were inspected afterwards and found to be below standards.
I know quite a few people who work for or are associated with the regie du batiment. They are severally understaffed and landlords have known this and take advantage.
It took the province to step for the city to start paying more attention to the Ville Marie autoroute and the Turcto interchange.

"I wouldn't hesitate to look to Montreal for ideas like how to design a subway station because they truly perfected the art and didn't bankrupt themselves doing so."

Again, Montreal's long term debt is more than double Toronto's with half the revenue. They are going down an unsustainable path.

"We're quite fortunate to have Montreal as a second city in Canada"

I'd go one step further. Canadians are lucky to have such great cities like Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary, Quebec City, Ottawa.

 

[junctionist]

"I wouldn't hesitate to look to Montreal for ideas like how to design a subway station because they truly perfected the art and didn't bankrupt themselves doing so."

Again, Montreal's long term debt is more than double Toronto's with half the revenue. They are going down an unsustainable path.

It doesn't have anything to do with the stations, which built over several decades. Their subway lines were cheaper to build overall.

 

[adma]

Montreal is also in a terrible financial situation. Financially it's by far the worst city in Canada. It's long term debt is more than double that of Toronto's with half the revenue.

Maybe the impression is escalated due to size. Still. given all the declining resource towns and regions out there, I'm not sure how "worst" it is in Canada, financially speaking. (What shape's Cape Breton in?)

 

[ladyscraper]

Toronto is the best!

 

[TonyV]

I have really enjoyed Thanos's responses to this. He evidently knows that old town well. I have relatives there. In recent years they have taken on a very noticeable "looking over the shoulder" stance with respect to Toronto. They haven't enjoyed this, of course, but recently they have all given in to Toronto's "ascendancy" (their word), and face it, that ascendancy is in high gear (with a noticeable exception: streetscaping).

I am lucky to be impartial - especially given Montreal's chauvinistic ways. My Montreal relatives were convinced years ago that I would join them, and I feigned indifference (man, did that get them!). My attitude has always been that Montreal has the past, and Toronto has the future. But I do like Montreal simply for what it is, although I have stayed away for a long time - the chauvinism there bugs me a bit. I honestly think that we folks in Toronto have a bigger and better world-view.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Montréal is also an older city than Toronto. The original inner city of Montréal was larger than the original city of Toronto, along with Montréal's inner suburbs, produced a more denser city with, not 2 story buildings, but 3 or 4 story low-rise buildings. Those buildings produce a more lively street life. Toronto's 2 story buildings produce less life on the streets.

However, the outer suburbs are similar to Toronto's outer suburbs, with a car oriented sprawl.

 

[Tewder]

I'm in Montreal quite a bit on business and I find that many of the younger 'cool' people there are very interested in Toronto and express it all the time to me. I think even the most hautain of Montreal champions realize that it's a bit silly to talk about Montreal superiority when comparing themselves to a city such as Toronto which is one of North America's largest and most dynamic, no matter what Montreal's charms or assets... which are many, by the way.

In a way though the fact that Montreal is sort of off the radar is one of its assets. It is taking risks and looking to innovate itself within its urban realm to a degree that is inconceivable here in frumpy old Hogtown.

 

[Bogtrotter]

Montréal is also an older city than Toronto. The original inner city of Montréal was larger than the original city of Toronto, along with Montréal's inner suburbs, produced a more denser city with, not 2 story buildings, but 3 or 4 story low-rise buildings. Those buildings produce a more lively street life. Toronto's 2 story buildings produce less life on the streets.

However, the outer suburbs are similar to Toronto's outer suburbs, with a car oriented sprawl.

Yes I would agree with this, the inner city of Montreal does feel like it has greater density- being built up with multi-storied lowrise buildings, many of it historic.

The highlight of MTL for me is easily the architecture. There is much more historic architecture throughout the city than TO. The block after block of architecture in old Montreal is pretty much unmatched in North America- St. Jacques (the old St. James) always amazes me.

Mount Royal is my favorite urban park, rivals Central Park in size, and the mountain provides terrific views of the city. I much prefer the subway stations in Montreal as well as the system layout- seems more extensive than TO. In fact I think it is a busier system than TO's now, and the only completely subsurface system in NA. But the trains are bigger and more comfortable in TO, and in Toronto you don't have to descend three stories underground to get to them!

I could go on raving about Montreal...but it does have it's drawbacks. Being in Quebec is a big one