Toronto 40 Walmer | 116.65m | 35s | 2114778 Ontario Inc | Turner Fleischer

Read what was written.

The site is not suitable for any tower because there are inadequate setbacks to the neighbours. It's an entirely absurd proposal, no amount of money will change that or should.

Really.......sigh.

The issue is not knee-jerk opposition to height, it's that the site is physically too small, and is constrained. by heritage on both sides.
...while I am all for The City rejecting an out of place Turner Fleischer spandrel box, the current building that's there now isn't anything to write home about. It kinda looks like a reject barrack from the Moss Park Armoury. So is there any room for the developer to least try to improve the look of it?
 
...while I am all for The City rejecting an out of place Turner Fleischer spandrel box, the current building that's there now isn't anything to write home about. It kinda looks like a reject barrack from the Moss Park Armoury. So is there any room for the developer to least try to improve the look of it?

The site is extremely tight in terms of any redevelopment. It's certainly not impossible, but if you shrink the floorplate to achieve reasonable separation distances you're heading towards pencil thin. I don't think the pro forma would pencil out. But I could be wrong.

A reclad is always possible; but given that there are rent control protected units in the building, I think it's only likely for functional reasons, rather than aesthetic ones.
 
The building that's there now is boring, but totally fine. In fact, if we had buildings like that spread all through the single house neighbourhoods, the city would be a much better place. Sadly, they are out of keeping with the "character of the neighbourhoods" so you can't build them.
 
The site is extremely tight in terms of any redevelopment. It's certainly not impossible, but if you shrink the floorplate to achieve reasonable separation distances you're heading towards pencil thin. I don't think the pro forma would pencil out. But I could be wrong.
...this has got me thinking though, between this and 171 Lowther..these places seem much more suited for the missing middle. Instead of plonking down in-yer-face towers which may give added schadenfreude to the Atwood Brigade, but seem uncanny fit to the needs of the surrounding neighbourhood. This 'hood ain't Yonge and Eglinton. And there's already a proposal for an appreciable tower at 38 Walmer...do we need those extra towers, where mid-rises would like be more appropriate and modest here?

A reclad is always possible; but given that there are rent control protected units in the building, I think its only likely for functional reasons, rather than aesthetic ones.
Yeah, I get that...and I should be careful here, as ultimately I don't want to see folks lose their places here regardless how I feel about the current building or its proposal. So I least should be aware of that. /sigh
 
There are a lot of things to say about this proposal, but if “visual and physical impacts on heritage” are enough to stop a building project, then it’s impossible for this area to ever meaningfully intensify.

What doesn’t have “visual impacts”? A fourplex, maybe?

If this test applies, and the West Annex gets a heritage conservation district (which the ARA is pushing for), then almost the entire Annex would be locked down. And in a way which could scuttle any provincial upzoning.

Clearly, that is what some people in the neighbourhood want. But two questions: is it right? And does such a policy survive provincial review?
 
There are a lot of things to say about this proposal, but if “visual and physical impacts on heritage” are enough to stop a building project, then it’s impossible for this area to ever meaningfully intensify.

The site is super small, separation distances are more key.

If this test applies, and the West Annex gets a heritage conservation district (which the ARA is pushing for), then almost the entire Annex would be locked down. And in a way which could scuttle any provincial upzoning.

Not happening. At least not if I have anything to say about it...........

Clearly, that is what some people in the neighbourhood want. But two questions: is it right? And does such a policy survive provincial review?

I don't think it gets there, but in the event that it did..............no under the current government..........except they aren't super likely to be in power once any appeals reach that level.
 
There are a lot of things to say about this proposal, but if “visual and physical impacts on heritage” are enough to stop a building project, then it’s impossible for this area to ever meaningfully intensify.

What doesn’t have “visual impacts”? A fourplex, maybe?

If this test applies, and the West Annex gets a heritage conservation district (which the ARA is pushing for), then almost the entire Annex would be locked down. And in a way which could scuttle any provincial upzoning.

Clearly, that is what some people in the neighbourhood want. But two questions: is it right? And does such a policy survive provincial review?
An 'Annex HCD' would also expressly go against the Annex's own history of redevelopment...
 
An 'Annex HCD' would also expressly go against the Annex's own history of redevelopment...

While I don't see any Annex HCD as forthcoming, likely, or desirable; I don't think a history of redevelopment is a material issue as such; that could be said of the vast majority of the city.

It needs to be added an HCD doesn't freeze development, it simply says development should broadly 'fit in' particularly in scale/massing, especially at street level.

Given that many buildings in 'The Annex' including the one to the immediate north of this property are taller, an HCD might arguably mandate more height. HCDs here, rarely get into the nitty gritty of architectural style; but if they did I would suppose the requirement on that street would be a nod to Prii.

Regardless, the issue here is really more about severe site size limitations, the proposed separation distances aren't even close to what's mandated and really would be pretty unreasonable.

The added bonus is that because of those constraints, the proposal would not merely be infringing on just any other building or some residents, but rather on not one, but two designated heritage buildings.

This was just a bad proposal, poorly thought out. Nothing more or less.
 
While I don't see any Annex HCD as forthcoming, likely, or desirable; I don't think a history of redevelopment is a material issue as such; that could be said of the vast majority of the city.

It needs to be added an HCD doesn't freeze development, it simply says development should broadly 'fit in' particularly in scale/massing, especially at street level.

Everything in the Annex west of Brunswick is five storeys or less. If an HCD is put in place, it would absolutely impede a taller development on any side street because it wouldn’t “fit.” Even if the city alters its requirements for separation distances and podium-tower form (which it absolutely should) an HCD could prevent any sizeable developments from happening here.

Wouldn’t it? Anyone with relevant expertise, please weigh in here.

I’m not sure why @Northern Light is convinced this won’t happen, when the ARA is vocally in favour of it, has already completed a study with Section 37 money, and remains influential.
 
Everything in the Annex west of Brunswick is five storeys or less. If an HCD is put in place, it would absolutely impede a taller development on any side street because it wouldn’t “fit.”

First off; Walmer is 2 blocks East of Brunswick.

The discussion was the application of a HCD to Walmer..

As Walmer's character is markedly different from the area west of Brunswick, you can't apply the same HCD to both, I would argue.

The heterogeneity, I would argue, contra indicates a single HCD.

So we need to clarify here where you believe an HCD may be proposed and adopted. West of Brunswick would clearly not impact this proposal, at all.

Even if the city alters its requirements for separation distances and podium-tower form (which it absolutely should) an HCD could prevent any sizeable developments from happening here.

See above as to where an HCD would apply; as to to changing requirements for separation distances, broadly, we disagree; the City has already reduced these requirements and I think they've gone as far as they ought to in most cases.

There is room for exceptions, of course, where a building is abutting another with a blank-facing wall, for a start (so not placing new unit 4M from someone else's window) ; and where acceptable minimum sunlight can be maintained, if every building gets the same permissions.

Wouldn’t it? Anyone with relevant expertise, please weigh in here.

:rolleyes:

I’m not sure why @Northern Light is convinced this won’t happen, when the ARA is vocally in favour of it, has already completed a study with Section 37 money, and remains influential.

I have partially explained above; but the criteria for applying an HCD can be found in this document:


From the above:

1705219902078.png

1705219922447.png


The first 2 criteria sets cannot be, in my judgement, consistently applied across Walmer and points east, and Brunswick and points west. I would argue these would require 2 different HCD's to meet the intent of the principles shown above.

I would also contend and that even applying the principles to Walmer and points east on a free-standing basis would be challenging.

Subsequent point, the City doesn't even list this area as having an HCD under development.


The West Annex HCD work was listed as 'Hold' (not being actively pursued right now) in the 2023 and beyond work plan published last February.

The ARA's consultant actually wrapped up their work in 2022 and it has been with heritage since.

Madison by the way is designated already, but is the only street so designated currently within the area.

These layout maps were produced by the Consultant, ASI:

1705220658994.png



The above is from this presentation:


There is no way to intelligently write one by law that protects more than 2 distinct sets of forms, already subdivided by an existing HCD. Try to write the set of rules to do that.

The consultant provides lots of information which could form the basis for Heritage to launch an HCD study of one or more sub segments of the area in the future.

My reading of their report suggests it would be difficult to argue for a single HCD or even just 2 across the entire zone; they have different typologies, different cultural and contextual values, I just don't see HPS doing a blanket HCD, and if they tried, I would oppose it.

Interestingly, ASI, to my reading, makes its best case for Walmer itself; but it has not gone forward yet, and I think it would be challenging.

What is of greater importance in the study materials, I could contend, is the individual properties suggested for individual designation. That I would watch closely. The list is far too long for HPS to pursue entirely, but a few could be advanced for study and have material effect.

The full consultant's report can be found here:


PS, someone might want to save these for future reference. ;)
 
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I live up a few minutes up the road from here , and think this should be approved.

The only adjustment I'd like to see is adding a couple retail units in the base.

While theres no doubt the missing middle is a big issue in the city, buildings with more units tend to have lower condo fees.
 
This is a weird digression @NorthernLight. But absolutely the city can create an HCD that covers a diverse district. They’ve done so with King-Parliament (which was altered at appeal) and King-Spadina (which is under appeal right now).


The point I’m trying to make is that
a) HCDs now overrule zoning
b) zoning could potentially change, for many reasons
c) the Annex could soon be locked down by an HCD which will be a very serious obstacle to new development, effectively forever.
 
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This is a weird digression @NorthernLight. But absolutely the city can create an HCD that covers a diverse district. They’ve done so with King-Parliament (which was altered at appeal) and King-Spadina (which is under appeal right now).

The City's Heritage Maps still do not show King-Parliament in effect. Curiously, neither do they show it as under appeal. * Edit to add, I see no evidence of an HCD process for King-Parliament, rather a Secondary Plan review, and a bulk 'listing' of heritage properties.

You're welcome to your opinions Alex, but factually many HCDs have carve outs and exclusions for areas that are non-conforming to the prevailing typology. Even blanket area designations such a Rosedale really have remarkably little that is non-conforming, in terms of a contiguous area or street.

Many of those 'blanket' areas, such as Rosedale are also the weaker, pre-2005 HCDs which do not prevail over zoning.


As to the likelihood of this progress: the ARA remains one of the most powerful such orgs in the city. Councillor Saxe recently raised this HCD at Council.

They have influence, there's no doubt about that. So do I.

The point I’m trying to make is that
a) HCDs now overrule zoning

Yes. On this we agree. It should be said, this isn't really new, this has been true since ~2005.

b) zoning could potentially change, for many reasons

Sure it could, and it will, I know of several proposals that will come to light shortly.

c) the Annex could soon be locked down by an HCD which will be a very serious obstacle to new development, effectively forever.

Again, I don't feel this is not particularly likely. You didn't read the report, which commissioned for ARA essentially suggests different zones/treatments for different areas. I don't believe a blanket HCD will be proposed, I don't think it would pass, it would be tied up in appeals for years and years if it did.

There are limited stretches of the West Annex that I could see getting a scoped down HCD; while for the most part, I would not support that, I think the areas most likely to meet criteria under the act represent less than 1/4 of what is now undesignated.

****

In any event, I would oppose anything remotely like a blanket HCD for the West Annex should that arise.

In particular, I see no merit including Bloor, Christie, Dupont or Spadina in such a district.

I also see little merit in doing so in the existing apartment neighbourhood areas, including Walmer.

The rest certainly doesn't merit blanket protection, but I'm more prepared to listen to the merits of a highly scoped proposal.

***

As a tangential side note, I'm more concerned with what the Bloor West Village study will have to say, when it reports out this quarter.

I also find the idea of a mass designation of Little Jamaica a concern.
 
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You didn't read the report, which commissioned for ARA essentially suggests different zones/treatments for different areas.
Perhaps due to Mr. Bozikovic's profession there's more imperative to investigate this...but is it fair to ask us to read threw all those thicker-than-the-Bible studies that you linked us? There is no guarantee that we'd come to same conclusion as you have...or have even gotten the same critical points here. And there still is the issue of differing opinions in the end.

That said, for heritage purposes...I don't see there is any value to 40 Walmar here. Perhaps this proposal didn't cut it due to the dimension side of things, but that should not stop it from being further development that respects those boundaries...

...juxtaposed to 171-175 Lowther Avenue just down the way, where the developers are planning to mow down elder buildings Doug style, save one...how is it they're getting away with that? To me, 40 Walmer is better suited for development if we're planning on preserving history here.
 

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