The Unity Debate

[Antiloop33rpm]

This seems to be the discussion I am having with most people since the election was all but set in stone. Without this resorting into foolishness, I am curious, what are everyones thoughts on this subject.

Do you think federalism in its current form works just fine and really just needs to put a few bad apples back in line? Do you think there are enough legitimate issues at hand that it should be reexamined? How do you feel about the rights of First Nations persons and their land claims and right to self governance? Do you think Canada is becoming more regionally fractured, and if so, do you perceive it to be temporary or something that will be a permanent part of Canadian politics? How do you feel about Quebec independence?

Ill leave Quebec aside for the momment. Focusing on Canada as a whole, I do see a number of issues that need to be addressed. The first would be the First Nations people. Our treatment of many of these people has been rather shameful and its something that we have never addressed properly. Its a nice gesture for the Liberals to have thrown money at the problem, and Im sure some of that will make a difference, but until many of these people can actually take control of their lives and have that power, the situation will remain mediocre at best. Canada loves to use their symbols and images when it markets itself to the world and tourists who come to Ottawa, but our actual actions are hypocritical.

The second issue concerns growing regionalism. The Bloc and The Reform Party (now the Canadian Conservatives) have changed the dynamics of Federal politics quite significantly. I can see this election once again highlighting this trend with a growing Western/Ontarian/Quebec divide with the North and the Maritimes left outside the margins. Up until recently, I would not have thought too much about a growing divide. However, given the size of Canada is going to much more likely allow regional variations to grow than if everyone where living on a mass the size of Ontario, there is a certain inevitability to these strifes occuring. But what could play out as a big factor is Alberta and the oil industry. Allready Alberta is in the strongest economic position of any province, and as oil prices rise, supplies tighten, and its coffers grow, it doesnt seem all that far off to see fringe seperatist groups in the province gain more strength under the banner of 'Alberta being tired of carrying the rest of Canada'.

That leads into my last issue and that is how the Federal Government is working for Canada. Maybe it is simply because I pay more attention to politics than I did 10 years ago, but it seems as though there are more an more failings with how the Federal Government is serving people. Equalization payments are a good example, where Ontario is paying a huge amount in and its citizens (in most cases rightly so) upset about what they are getting in return. These types of payments have also contributed to the creation and belittling of the 'have not' provinces which brings about a certain amount of tension between various regions of the country. Also, what roles should it be playing? If Canada is a country that actually believes in respecting the cultural diversity of English Canadians, French Canadians, and First Nations, then why should provinces not be afforded the power needed to ensure that these diversities can remain? I suppose this issue boils down to whether I am mistaken in my belief at what Canada is, in which case, the Federal Government probably works fine, or are these problems actually in part because of a failure of the Federal Government to change and evolve in a manner that is more fitting of the society that is emmerging.

Quebec. Well, all I can really say is that Im rather divided on this issue. I can understand both sides of this debate and both have valid points, and both also engage in a lot of nonsense and rhetoric. Given that this is not something that is going to disappear I do think that this really needs to be actually discussed instead of the usual (non)discourse that revolves around it.

 

[bizorky]

I hope you are not writing the next referendum question. :b

 

[ganjavih]

This seems to be the discussion I am having with most people since the election was all but set in stone. Without this resorting into foolishness, I am curious, what are everyones thoughts on this subject.

I dunno... I think you're giving this matter more time than it's worth.

Do you think federalism in its current form works just fine and really just needs to put a few bad apples back in line?

It works as well as any other system. Democracy can be messy at times. People disagree on policy, regions have their own interests, that's life.

Focusing on Canada as a whole, I do see a number of issues that need to be addressed. The first would be the First Nations people.

A difficult topic with no easy answer. I have a feeling that the reserve system is outdated, harmful and needs to be done with. But what does this have to do with the unity debate?

The second issue concerns growing regionalism.

Is it growing?

I can see this election once again highlighting this trend with a growing Western/Ontarian/Quebec divide with the North and the Maritimes left outside the margins.

Our 'first past the post' system makes our differences appear larger than they really are. For example almost a third of Albertans voted Liberal in the last election... not that much less than Ontario. I bet most Albertans don't even know that.

But what could play out as a big factor is Alberta and the oil industry. Allready Alberta is in the strongest economic position of any province, and as oil prices rise, supplies tighten, and its coffers grow, it doesnt seem all that far off to see fringe seperatist groups in the province gain more strength under the banner of 'Alberta being tired of carrying the rest of Canada'.

I don't think there's any evidence that this will happen. Albertans already give more to Canada per capita than anyone else.

That leads into my last issue and that is how the Federal Government is working for Canada.

What I'll say about this is that there's an taxation imbalance. While, according to the constitution, the Feds and the provinces are supposed to be equal partners, in reality, the Feds control where most of the money goes. And with the downloading that has occurred, the Feds are swimming in money while the provinces are struggling to make ends meet. Something needs to be done about this.

Quebec. Well, all I can really say is that Im rather divided on this issue.

Well, I'm not. I say don't give the sovereignists the time of day and stop letting them hijack the nation's politics. The perception that threatening to separate can be rewarding has given Alberta and even Toronto ideas about using it as a negotiating tactic. It's annoying, infantile and tiresome. Sure, there are plenty in Quebec that want to separate, but not enough to justify it. And if Quebec can be separated from Canada, why can't Quebec itself be divided? It's all a bunch of BS. If some day, 75% of Quebecers want to separate, then we'll talk. Until then, forget about it.

Canada is a more robust country than people give it credit for. Sure there's a lot of whining, something that we probably inherited from the British (they're even worse), but our problems are miniscule compared to the challenges some countries have.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"If some day, 75% of Quebecers want to separate, then we'll talk."

Once kids and people that don't vote are included, even a 75% figure on a referendum may not amount to a real majority of all Quebecers.

I think the best bet for separatists would be for the Bloc to run candidates in all ridings across the country, win an election, and then somehow kick all the Anglo regions out of their country. To gain a majority, all they have to do is make sure party names aren't on ballots and then run confusing candidates like Paula Martin or Paul Marten. Borys Wrzesnewskyj would be the incumbent most likely to fall, followed by Bevilacqua, Karetak-Lindell, Scarpaleggia, Schellenberger, and Wasylycia-Leis.

 

[afransen TO]

I'll agree. I think the US, France, Germany and others might actually have more problems as countries than Canada does now and the foreseeable future.

I'm also not convinced that a fair question could achieve a significant (at least 60%) majority on Quebec sovereignty. It seems like Quebec is realising that it has little to gain, and potentially a lot to lose.

That the sovereigntists in Quebec come up with absurd studies that suggest Quebec would be rolling in tax revenue after separating supports this. That they feel the need to fabricate such bullshit to bolster their argument implies that the movement is in more trouble than polling suggests.

 

[dan e 1980]

if we lose quebec, we lose all the friendly hot french-canadian women and best nightclub scene in canada.


canada will then be known for woodbridge princesses and hip hop thugs. :eek

i hope that they build a highspeed train from toronto to montreal. it will help with the unity issue.

 

[rbtaylor]

I think the best bet for separatists would be for the Bloc to run candidates in all ridings across the country, win an election, and then somehow kick all the Anglo regions out of their country. To gain a majority, all they have to do is make sure party names aren't on ballots and then run confusing candidates like Paula Martin or Paul Marten.

If party names were gone they could just run 30 independents in each riding to split the vote down and have all of their own people vote for a single person. In the event that person doesn't win, have the independent who did win join the party.

 

[blixa442]

More than ever I am convinced that Quebec is not a necessary component of what constitutes Canada, and vice versa. That said, I think that the 'seperatists' have no balls to seperate. They're just blackmailing cowards, or worse, professional politicians. Canada provides a wonderful buffer that allows for a certain segment of strident Quebecois nationalists to get caught up in delusional frenzies that are detached from reality. Deep inside, they know they'd be screwed if they tried to venture out on their own.

 

[fiendishlibrarian]

Same old song and dance. Quebec's population relative to the rest of the country is either stagnant, or declining. There are low birthrates, and any population growth and/or replacement is likely among the segment of the population least likely to vote for separation: immigrants. So demographically speaking, the separatists' time came and went back in the days of stubbies and Lafleur on the wing. All those separatiste boomers now living off of their federal pensions represent the last gasp of the movement. Anything else is wishful thinking on the part of the cokehead, whatshisface...

And all those other issues are completely solvable. Has nothing to do with the underlying strength of the country, something you wouldn't notice if all you listen to are academics, journalists, and other blowhards who make a living stoking grievances.

 

[dan e 1980]

More than ever I am convinced that Quebec is not a necessary component of what constitutes Canada, and vice versa.

i disagree. this country started off as upper and lower canada.

I think that the 'seperatists' have no balls to seperate. They're just blackmailing cowards, or worse, professional politicians.

they push seperation as a threat to get their way.

 

[samplain]

I dont get the Unity Issue. Im sure most around here have the opinion that national unity is just fine the way it is. All provinces for the most part do their own thing. The federals get together on some management issues that we usually dont notice.

 

[Darkstar416]

Canada is a more robust country than people give it credit for. Sure there's a lot of whining, something that we probably inherited from the British (they're even worse), but our problems are miniscule compared to the challenges some countries have.

Well said ganjavih! And the whining gets exacerbated by our first-past-the-post system and the fact that your vote is worth more in a rural rather than an urban riding. Change those dynamics and our country suddenly seems much more...solid.

I'm also not convinced that a fair question could achieve a significant (at least 60%) majority on Quebec sovereignty. It seems like Quebec is realising that it has little to gain, and potentially a lot to lose.

While I admire the strength and determination of the Quebecois to do things a bit differently, there's little that can't be done within our federation as it stands. Many ardent nationalists have even come to this conclusion over the last five years.

In this post-Gomery world, it's easy to forget that it was the BQ who everyone was talking about a few years ago as the party that was about to be eliminated. If Charest manages to hang on to power in Quebec (a gigantic "if" I know), by the time another referendum happens, things will likely be very different yet again.

Basically, there's a tonne to lose and very little to gain (maybe an Olympic hockey team being the most obvious). Har Har.

 

[TdotTrickyRicky]

In my opinion Canada is actually more united now than at any time in it's history. Urban, suburban and rural divides I think add a level of complexity to the mix. As our cities become larger and more powerful people begin identifying more with their city over their province. The highly educated, affluent and motivated Canadian's that will lead the country in the coming decades are likely suburban or urban, of mixed ethnic heritage with a strong peer group network that at a domestic level has strong representation in Vancouver, the Calgary-Edmonton corridor, Greater Toronto and Greater Montreal. So on the one hand I think unity is increasingly an issue important to the shrinking rural and small city demographic, and yet the burgeoning urban and suburban demographic is increasingly indifferent to it either way so long as it doesn't greatly influence ties to the other majour city regions.