Splitting the 501 Queen Streetcar

[StIdes]

I just read this on the Transit Toronto website and I had no idea this was coming dispite the fact that I live on Queen St. W in Parkdale.

TTC splits 501 Queen into two routes,
Mondays to Fridays, starting October 19

By Robert Mackenzie (from transit.toronto.on.ca/) on October 13, 2009 1:24 PM

Passengers have complained for many years about the unreliablity of service on the TTC’s 501 Queen streetcar route — particularly in the extreme eastern and western ends of the route. Next week, the TTC is responding to its passengers by experimenting with splitting the route into two.

For just six weeks, starting next Monday, October 19, streetcars operate between Neville Park Loop and Shaw Street in the east end and between either Long Branch or Humber Loops and Parliament Street in west end Mondays to Fridays only. The split continues Monday-to-Friday nights (or, actually, very early Tuesday-to-Saturday mornings) along the 301 Queen overnight route.
Continue reading TTC splits 501 Queen into two routes,
Mondays to Fridays, starting October 19.

So anyways what do you guys think of this? I personally think its stupid. My reasoning is that it just seems adding slow turns of streetcars at corners is only going to create a slower less reliable service. Also the extra transfer points would be a drag if you wanted to say travel from Coxwell ave. in the east to Lansdowne ave. in the west. They would now have you get on at Coxwell then have to transfer at Parliament to be able to get on a street car going that far west to Lansdowne. To me it just sounds like complicating something instead of keeping it simple. I dont see how this can benefit anything? If someone has a reason why this is good or other reasons why this is bad, I'd like to know.

2 Main bad things.
1. Turning street cars at the many intersections theyre using to turn the cars back mid point on route = Extra congestion of vehicle traffic
2. Transfer points = Suck

 

[Swarley]

I think the main benefit is reliability... a delay on one half of the route won't affect the other. From what I've heard this is how the route used to be run. It's just for a 6 week period anyway....

 

[DSC]

I suggest you read some of the Queen Car info on Steve Munro's site. http://stevemunro.ca/?cat=10 The problem now is that the route is very long so service at either end is poor and the TTC still tries to keep to a timetable rather than a system with 1 car every x minutes.

 

[nfitz]

From what I've heard this is how the route used to be run.

When was that? It thought it had been a continuous service from Neville past Roncesvalles at least since before the war.

It's just for a 6 week period anyway....

Precisely ... this is just an experiment; in a long-line of experiments they have been doing along the route over the past year or so. If it's a really bad idea, it won't be seen again; and in the meantime is no more disruptive than any of the things that have been going on on other routes this summer (504, 505, 506, 512, etc.).

 

[Swarley]

When was that? It thought it had been a continuous service from Neville past Roncesvalles at least since before the war.

I was thinking of the 507 Long Branch... totally different from this. Can you tell this was before my time?

 

[Second_in_pie]

ooh I'm sure this'll have a negative affect on some people. But for now, I think it's pretty necessary. Hopefully this'll be the end of waiting on Queen street for a streetcar for 20 minutes, just to have 3 streetcars come to your aide just when you decide it might be better to walk!

I've mentioned it a few times, Queen desperately needs to be better. Turn it into a LRT, with a subway through downtown (Spadina-Church.) That way it can be much faster as well as much more reliable, giving a reasonably good ride to people east of Royal York (people to the west should be taking the Go train instead!)

 

[kEiThZ]

Just wait till this arrangement is replicated city-wide once Transit City is fully up and running.

 

[nfitz]

Just wait till this arrangement is replicated city-wide once Transit City is fully up and running.

How would that be ... the Transit City cars are supposed to be double-ended, so the long on-street loops wouldn't be necessary?

 

[kEiThZ]

How would that be ... the Transit City cars are supposed to be double-ended, so the long on-street loops wouldn't be necessary?

I was referring to the inability to manage such a long streetcar line resulting in it being split up.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Keithz/nfitz:

I know both of you have issues with TC, but there is no need to express your distaste/support in every single thread in the subforum even when it isn't appropriate. You should both take a chill pill and leave the TC debate in TC threads. Any future occurances of out of thread debates on the said topic will be deleted.

AoD

 

[nfitz]

I was referring to the inability to manage such a long streetcar line resulting in it being split up.

It would almost make sense on Eglinton - I wouldn't be suprised if they do exactly this. And not because of the inability to operate, but because the demand on the central section will be higher than the west or east sections.

If Eglinton were operated so that 33% of vehicles did the entire route, 33% did Pearson to Don Mills, and 33% did Kennedy to Jane then that would result in more capacity and frequency in the centre section. I can't imagine that they intend to operate the route so that all the vehicles go out to the end of the line, when the demand will clearly be much higher in the centre.

 

[Voltz]

It would almost make sense on Eglinton - I wouldn't be suprised if they do exactly this. And not because of the inability to operate, but because the demand on the central section will be higher than the west or east sections.

If Eglinton were operated so that 33% of vehicles did the entire route, 33% did Pearson to Don Mills, and 33% did Kennedy to Jane then that would result in more capacity and frequency in the centre section. I can't imagine that they intend to operate the route so that all the vehicles go out to the end of the line, when the demand will clearly be much higher in the centre.

The only issue I can see with that arrangement is there would be uneven gaps on the outer sections. Another possible arrangement would be having half of the LRT's from the west end to Don Mills, and the other half operating from the east end to Jane.

But regarding the queen streetcar, it is a good idea, and I look forward to the results, although I don't see the need to split the 301 night car as well.

 

[kEiThZ]

It would almost make sense on Eglinton - I wouldn't be suprised if they do exactly this. And not because of the inability to operate, but because the demand on the central section will be higher than the west or east sections.

If Eglinton were operated so that 33% of vehicles did the entire route, 33% did Pearson to Don Mills, and 33% did Kennedy to Jane then that would result in more capacity and frequency in the centre section. I can't imagine that they intend to operate the route so that all the vehicles go out to the end of the line, when the demand will clearly be much higher in the centre.

Suddenly that Transfer City moniker doesn't seem so inappropriate.

As for Queen, I share Steve Munro's hopes that this might improve reliability and prevent failures from cascading. Ultimately though the only solution is the induction of the new streetcars as fast as possible and some kind of magic device to discipline operators who don't stick to the schedule.

 

[DavidH]

The only issue I can see with that arrangement is there would be uneven gaps on the outer sections. Another possible arrangement would be having half of the LRT's from the west end to Don Mills, and the other half operating from the east end to Jane.

Or alternatively, we could have a central route sticking to the tunneled section and a full route. Lots of options so we can be sure the worst one is chosen.

 

[nfitz]

Suddenly that Transfer City moniker doesn't seem so inappropriate.

How is this any different than the plan on the YUS subway that once both extensions are complete, that on Yonge some trains will start at Finch, and others at Richmond Hill; and on University some trains will start at Vaughan Centre, while others will start at Steeles West.

On one hand splitting the 301 service seems dumb; but on the other hand a review of the service summaries shows that by increasing the number of vehicles from 5 to 7, they will increase the decrease the service interval from Dufferin to Broadview from once every 30 minutes, to once every 15 minutes! Currently this is the 3 AM to 5 AM service.

Though it's odd that they think that this service increase is necessary on a Monday night, but not on a Saturday night.