S-bahns (electric suburban rail)

[AlchemisTO]

If Toronto is expected to grow to a city of 10 million, I cannot foresee how we will be able to solve our transportation problems with horrendously expensive white elephant subway lines that barely inch over the city boundaries, or with streetcar corridors that barely offer any time savings over a conventional bus. Instead, we should consider these:

Basically, for the fraction of the cost of a new subway line, we could have fast, electric rail service stretching across the GTA. Of course, it's not free, because our existing railways were built to a poor standard, and are mainly intended for hauling freight. For the $2 billion, or so, that's being earmarked for the VCC subway we could easily retrofit the Lakeshore, Georgetown, Markham-Stouffville lines to run these kinds of trains. Although there is a lot of talk and no action on transit in Toronto, there is not even any talk about S-bahn style transit. Why?

 

[spmarshall]

Excellent question. I've been advocating this idea on this board and elsewhere for quite some time. Malvern would get rapid transit. So would Rexdale, Vaughan, Brampton, MCC - all with minimal tunnelling and maximum use of existing infrastructure.

The best part is such a network can be built incrementally! Start with some capacity improvements, buy some diesel multiple units, install signal upgrades, put some more capacity improvements, upgrade Union Station, electrify one line, do more work, electify another.

There is good news though - GO is spending billions (quietly) to add grade separations, additional track and capacity for its monster infrequent 7, 10 and (coming soon to a monster parking lot near you) 12 car trains. With the infrastructure they build, it would be very feasible to have 20-30 minute frequencies with smaller diesel equipment on Georgetown, Lakeshore and Stouffville Lines. More money would be needed for faster trains and electrification and for 10-15 minute service, but that can come. All we need to do is get rid of the cabbageheads at GO and mandate the GTTA to do this.

 

[socialwoe]

^Why couldn't this be implemented on Eglinton Avenue? The avenues project has alotted a wallop of space for it west of Jane and east of Leslie. Yes it'd be buried in the middle but how much would that cost in contrast to tunnel-borer subways, not that much. This might be the surest way to ensure an Eglinton 'subway' without shortcuts. Best of all it's become Toronto's first cross-city line and first line to reach Pearson Airport, very impressive feats agreed :smokin ?

 

[unimaginative2]

That's exactly right, spmarshall. I think the first step is to bring in some people from SNCF or DB to consult on scheduling frequent service on mixed-traffic lines. Unfortunately, I don't think it can ever happen as long as the lines are owned and, more importantly, dispatched by the freight railways.

In terms of a dream S-Bahn system for Toronto, I'd convert all the GO lines and have perhaps a couple diversions. One obvious spot is the Milton line to MCC. It would cost several hundred million to tunnel under Hurontario, build a station at Square One, and run a new line in the 403 corridor to rejoin the existing track, but the intermodal connections would definitely be worth it. Another possible spot for a diversion would be at Scarborough Centre, though that might be a little more challenging.

Other than that, the existing corridors are pretty great. After Lakeshore, a great possibility would be the Galt Sub line from the junction down to Union Station. They should shift all the Georgetown and Milton line trains onto this double tracked route that GO already owns. With the stops at Bloor and perhaps at King or Queen streets, it could offer a high-frequency express service to the downtown area from the west end.

Virtually all European S-Bahn/RER lines are double-tracked and share the line with long-distance express passenger trains as well as freight. I don't understand why the same isn't possible here.

The biggest complaint I've heard is that smaller MU-style trains couldn't handle the massive numbers of people that GO moves during rush hours. I don't see how this is a problem since German S-Bahns and particularly Paris' RER move far more people. Even during rush hours, frequencies are barely better than every 20 minutes at best. If that were reduced to, say, every 10 or even every 5 on busier lines, I'm sure the lost capacity would be easily replaced.

Socialwoe, everyone supports rapid transit on Eglinton, but that's not what S-Bahn is. S-Bahn uses, for the most part, existing heavy rail lines.

 

[adma]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: go whole hog, and do it Wuppertal style

 

[spmarshall]

The biggest complaint I've heard is that smaller MU-style trains couldn't handle the massive numbers of people that GO moves during rush hours.

I'd keep them, at least in the medium-term, and reserve the double-deck cars for rush hour express runs when crowds are heaviest. That would also take into account the much slower acceleration and decceleration times that would be acceptable for long-haul limited stop runs to Barrie or Bowmanville, but not for a speedy regional rail system to the airport, Markham, MCC or Downtown Brampton.

 

[socialwoe]

Holy crap Adma :eek ! Where does that exist and how do we get one here? Wowzers, I guess elevated subways are possible, Eglinton here we come !

 

[AlchemisTO]

The biggest complaint I've heard is that smaller MU-style trains couldn't handle the massive numbers of people that GO moves during rush hours. I don't see how this is a problem since German S-Bahns and particularly Paris' RER move far more people.

The Western line of Mumbai's suburban rail network carries 2.6 million passengers per day, or two times the entire TTC daily ridership on one line.

It would be interesting to know from a historical perspective why North America is the only continent where suburban railways never caught on. Even before the car became dominant prior to the second world war the only two cities to develop electric suburban rail service were Philadelphia and New York. Like soccer and the metric system, suburban railways are one of those things that the rest of the world embraced except us.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"The Western line of Mumbai's suburban rail network carries 2.6 million passengers per day, or two times the entire TTC daily ridership on one line."

 

[p5archit]

S-bahns

Virtually all European S-Bahn/RER lines are double-tracked and share the line with long-distance express passenger trains as well as freight. I don't understand why the same isn't possible here.

It isn't possible, because we live in Canada. Simple as that. Why model our system on highly efficient and successful European systems--that would be just ludicrous and very UN-Canadian- patchwork, piecemeal 1960's technology is all we are good for.

p5







Socialwoe: That is located in Wuppertal, Germany. Its a great ride and is really quite cool to be in while gliding over the town and along the river..

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[officedweller]

Re: S-bahns

It would be interesting to know from a historical perspective why North America is the only continent where suburban railways never caught on. Even before the car became dominant prior to the second world war the only two cities to develop electric suburban rail service were Philadelphia and New York. Like soccer and the metric system, suburban railways are one of those things that the rest of the world embraced except us.

Vancouver and Seattle both had extensive "interurban" railways (as distinguished from smaller streetcars, which each also had). They died in the 1950s with the rise of the auto.

 

[dashingdan]

Re: S-bahns

I think some S-bahnesque would work great in the GTA. For non-peak hours, our massive bilevel 12-car trains are horrendously oversized. Something much smaller but runs on the same tracks, would work best. It should have the capacity of a couple of buses, maybe 100 people. GO should design it itself too! And it should be self-propelled.

 

[socialwoe]

Re: S-bahns

That is located in Wuppertal, Germany. Its a great ride and is really quite cool to be in while gliding over the town and along the river..

It looks great. I'm just wondering how a similar service would fair along Eglinton Avenue, or Queen for that matter. The beams supporting it would have to be less conspicuous but otherwise it may be the future of Toronto transit.

 

[interchange42]

Re: S-bahns

That's from the west end of Wuppertal's Schwebebahn, where it goes down the main street of Vohwinkel.

If you're interested in more on the Schwebebahn, check out the Wikipedia article here, or you can see more of my Schwebebahn pics here.

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[Brighter Hell]

Re: S-bahns

An S-Bahn on the Weston sub would be perfect to serve the airport and neighbourhoods on the way.