Roads: Scarlett Road / CP Rail Bridge EA

[W. K. Lis]

The Scarlett Road / CP Rail Bridge Environmental Study Report has been completed.

It is recommended, according to the report, that any bridge should be designed to accommodate future streetcar service in shared lanes. In addition, should exclusive right-of-way be implemented in the future on either the Dundas Street West and/or St. Clair Avenue West approaches, access through the bridge can be enhanced through use of transit priority signals.

Approximate construction start year is 2011.

 

[EnviroTO]

I would think the most natural western terminus of the St.Clair streetcar would be at Kipling station after going under this bridge and along Dundas through Islington village and the new Six Points development. Alternatively ending at Islington would work as well although the connection opportunities are greater at Kipling with the future MT terminal and the GO station.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I think that reusing the hydro right-of-way that follows Dundas Street West to Kipling is one option to be considered. After all, the original use of the hydro right-of-way was for the Toronto Suburban Railway, a radial streetcar right-of-way.

There's a bicycle path that follows the Humber River. It crosses the river just north of Dundas Street West. That bicycle bridge uses the same footings of the trestle that the radial streetcar line used to cross the Humber River.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

I would think the most natural western terminus of the St.Clair streetcar would be at Kipling station after going under this bridge and along Dundas through Islington village and the new Six Points development. Alternatively ending at Islington would work as well although the connection opportunities are greater at Kipling with the future MT terminal and the GO station.

I disagree. I think it's more that suitable to end the St Clair streetcar at the Scarlett/Dundas/St Clair intersection with an off street loop or otherwise. What benefit would there be in running the street car from Kipling/Islington to St Clair? The subway does a far better job of bringing people to the core. Given a Dundas Streetcar and a Scarlett Bus route the area has all the markings of a pretty significant transit meeting place.

If anything I would support an extension of the Dundas Streetcar (or a bus route) from Dundas West further west towards or even terminating at Kipling. That seems the more logical choice. Although I think a bus route is adequate for this area.

 

[RedRocket191]

If anything I would support an extension of the Dundas Streetcar (or a bus route) from Dundas West further west towards or even terminating at Kipling. That seems the more logical choice. Although I think a bus route is adequate for this area.

Welcome to UT!

I think we have to consider what the future will bring. The current Lambton bus was one of the routes considered for elimination, so a bus route is more than adequate. However, the area is ripe for development (I was just there today, BTW) and in 10 years it might be a completely different story.

 

[adma]

I think that reusing the hydro right-of-way that follows Dundas Street West to Kipling is one option to be considered. After all, the original use of the hydro right-of-way was for the Toronto Suburban Railway, a radial streetcar right-of-way.

There's a bicycle path that follows the Humber River. It crosses the river just north of Dundas Street West. That bicycle bridge uses the same footings of the trestle that the radial streetcar line used to cross the Humber River.

That hydro ROW zone above the Humber to the east is an interesting zone, especially on a muggy summer evening. Great place for teens to skateboard and get high and make out and nurture memories forever after. Got that real suburban-416 Hello-It's-Me-by-Todd-Rundgren feel to it. (Also cf. various parts of Scarborough Bluffs)

 

[EnviroTO]

I disagree. I think it's more that suitable to end the St Clair streetcar at the Scarlett/Dundas/St Clair intersection with an off street loop or otherwise. What benefit would there be in running the street car from Kipling/Islington to St Clair? The subway does a far better job of bringing people to the core. Given a Dundas Streetcar and a Scarlett Bus route the area has all the markings of a pretty significant transit meeting place.

All trips do not head downtown. More and more jobs are in the burbs and office developments are planned in the Islington and Kipling area. Ending the streetcar at Scarlett makes the streetcar in one direction a route to nowhere whereas ending it at Kipling or Islington makes it a route from somewhere to somewhere. To get people from St.Clair to Mississauga it makes little sense to send them to St.Clair west, down to Spadina, over to Kipling, and onto the GO, MT, or Airport Rocket when a major shortcut can be put in place.

 

[drum118]

There are a number of plans for extending the St Clair Line west of Scarlett Rd and that includes the Hydro ROW, Dundas itself and a line up Scarlett Rd to the Airport.

Cannot look at what there today, but 15-25 year time frame.

Look what happen to St Clair west of Keele in the past 10 years as well what taking place for the rezoning of the CP lands this month.

Times are changing with more development coming along Dundas as well west of Scarlett Rd. MT LRT can end up at this intersection or the 512 having one or more branch lines.

Buses can only carry so many riders before the cost ratio for bus vs LRT ends up on the high side.

I have already said where I see the 512 ending up as one route. The other to the Airport.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Extending the St. Clair (streetcar) LRT to Kipling would also make available an alternative routing in case of trouble on the Bloor-Danforth subway. Additional LRV's could be then added as shuttles either to Jane Station (if turns from west to south are provided at the Jane LRT) or continuing onto the St. Clair West Station.

 

[Jonny5]

All trips do not head downtown. More and more jobs are in the burbs and office developments are planned in the Islington and Kipling area. Ending the streetcar at Scarlett makes the streetcar in one direction a route to nowhere whereas ending it at Kipling or Islington makes it a route from somewhere to somewhere. To get people from St.Clair to Mississauga it makes little sense to send them to St.Clair west, down to Spadina, over to Kipling, and onto the GO, MT, or Airport Rocket when a major shortcut can be put in place.

What stretch of St. Clair is the "somewhere" that will have better service to Kipling via an extended 512 route? The alternate route you are contrasting should not be going backwards to St. Clair West etc.. but going south to Bloor and east to Kipling. I don't see an extended line east of Scarlett providing better access to Kipling for someone on St. Clair, unless east of Scarlett it's a very limited stop, dedicated ROW service. If that's the case, it's a pretty specialized point to point service that I think would be redundant with a better filled out north/south network.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

St Clair West ends at Scarlett Rd in a complicated intersection. The southbound lane on Scarlett only allows right turns onto Dundas (south of the CP bridge). If the 512 were brought this far and continued along Dundas, the line would have to tunnel roughly 200m east of the intersection underneath the railway and re-emerge just to the west on Dundas.

A more practical destination for the 512 though would be Jane Stn though. The TC tunnel presumably begins at St Clair as Jane Street narrows to two lanes south to the subway. Both Jane LRT and the 512 can share the tunnel. 30 Lambton usually routes near empty through the Kingsway area, with the High Park and Cordova/Mabelle areas the most viable. In other words, not the ideal place you spend millions worth of LRT track/maintenence on.

 

[drum118]

St Clair West ends at Scarlett Rd in a complicated intersection. The southbound lane on Scarlett only allows right turns onto Dundas (south of the CP bridge). If the 512 were brought this far and continued along Dundas, the line would have to tunnel roughly 200m east of the intersection underneath the railway and re-emerge just to the west on Dundas.

A more practical destination for the 512 though would be Jane Stn though. The TC tunnel presumably begins at St Clair as Jane Street narrows to two lanes south to the subway. Both Jane LRT and the 512 can share the tunnel. 30 Lambton usually routes near empty through the Kingsway area, with the High Park and Cordova/Mabelle areas the most viable. In other words, not the ideal place you spend millions worth of LRT track/maintenence on.

At the last Public meeting in 2006, there was to be a final plan brought back for public input on the new lineament of the Dundas and St Clair intersection for Scarlett Rd for better left hand turning east bound. The new Dundas intersection was to include better crosswalks as well TTC running LRT in an ROW from St Clair to Dundas. There was to be some relineament of Scarlett Rd at Dundas including Dundas itself.

I have yet to see any final design for the new bridge or the intersections since then.

I know TTC didn't get what they wanted, but there is room for an LRT in the new design.

There is no need for a Tunnel.

Having 512 connect to Dundas at Scarlett Rd would allow TTC to cut the current dead heading in haft if not more. TTC could keep the 512 in service all the way to the carhouse by Dundas and short tuning it as a 504 at Queen. TTC could put the 512 into service at Queen as a Dundas car that turns into a 512 at the end of the run. Better use of resources than today.

Unless things have change, Scarlett Rd traffic will be able to make a left hand turn onto Dundas under the new design.

 

[junctionist]

It's good to hear some progress on this, but the 2011 start is disappointing. The bridge is considered a deterrent to pedestrian traffic, but this is problem is furthered by the lack of a sidewalk on one side of St. Clair, and the traffic signals on Dundas which allow only a small amount of time to cross Dundas.

An interesting bit of information is that Scarlett has signs that give cyclists the right to use the entire lane. I don't recall too many of these in the city.

 

[adma]

As I've suggested before: how about a roundabout of sorts at this intersection?

 

[dowlingm]

For me, extending the St Clair line to Jane initially is the key to kickstarting both the Jane LRT and an airport LRT link as the on-road construction is likely to be faster as opposed to waiting for the Eglinton tunnel to be funded and then built, and the Eglinton Line could then join the existing service and assume the majority of the frequency if appropriate.

However, a later extension over Scarlett Road (after Eglinton LRT is running to the airport), down Dundas and Kipling to Humber College Lakeshore and Long Branch could be an interesting way to introduce additional resiliency to the streetcar system allowing "escape" for LRTs when there is a service closure between Roncesvalles and Long Branch as well as relieve the BD/YUS transfer points of at least some Etobicokers heading to midtown and viceversa.

[Google Map from Kipling/Lakeshore to Yonge/St Clair]