return on investment - condo vs. house?

[Oliver Tweed]

I bought a fixer-upper in East York two years ago in a neighbourhood in transition. Another option I had was a condo closer to downtown. My thinking was that the house (mine's a semi) would appreciate more than a condo, but after hearing how hot the condo market is right now, I have to wonder.

I would be interested to hear thoughts on which one will increase more over the next 5 years.

 

[cdr108]

I bought a fixer-upper in East York two years ago in a neighbourhood in transition. Another option I had was a condo closer to downtown. My thinking was that the house (mine's a semi) would appreciate more than a condo, but after hearing how hot the condo market is right now, I have to wonder.

I would be interested to hear thoughts on which one will increase more over the next 5 years.

it depends on location in East York as you said it's in 'transition', and the condition of the property as the condo is probably 'move-in' ready vs. the house in it's current fixer-upper state.

 

[Josef]

Yes, of course it is dependent on the location, and what type of condo and home you're comparing. A 2 bedroom + den might appreciate more than a squished in the middle town home.

 

[BrianPersaud]

I bought a fixer-upper in East York two years ago in a neighbourhood in transition. Another option I had was a condo closer to downtown. My thinking was that the house (mine's a semi) would appreciate more than a condo, but after hearing how hot the condo market is right now, I have to wonder.

I would be interested to hear thoughts on which one will increase more over the next 5 years.

History has show that condos have appreciated the most in the city, areas that had double digit appreciation for houses had neighborhoods that demonstrated a significant inflow of people with higher incomes moving into the area and spending money to upgrade the homes. When they bought, they spent huge money on renovations (even teardowns)...and other people started doing the same thing...bidding up the prices of the surrounding homes as more people wanted to do this (either as a flip or because they wanted to live there).

An example of this would be Birchcliffe villiage @ Warden and Kingston Rd,

Another way you can get more appreciation is buy watching what improvements are being done in the area. Transportation, infrastructure are great.

I think there is a lot of untapped potential in East York. Do your homework to see where these transitions are happening.

 

[Oliver Tweed]

Thanks, Brian.

I also continue to see a lot of potential in East York. (I'm in the Coxwell and Gerrard area.)

This baffles me, however: The businesses on Coxwell, Gerrard and other nearby streets do not seem to match the people living in the area.

The majority of the people on my street and on surrounding streets have decent jobs, in many cases are well-educated young professionals, some creative types, with basically good salaries and prospects. There is a lot of renovation going on and the neighbourhood has made a noticeable change for the better in just the two years I've been there (during a recession). Before that, housing prices had gone up close to 10 per cent for four years in a row, according to my neighbours.

Aside from a new Goodlife Fitness, whose clientele seems to better reflect who lives in the area, the rest of the businesses are ultra low-end and frequented by a completely different clientele. I know there are several co-op housing facilities on Coxwell, but it still seems way out of proportion given how many houses are on the surrounding streets. I'm curious why the businesses haven't come close to keeping pace with the changes on the surrounding streets. When I speak to my neighbours, I get the sense they would all love to be able to go out and have a drink, meal or coffee close by but wouldn't set foot in any of the places currently around there (myself included). Why the delay?

 

[BrianPersaud]

Thanks, Brian.

I also continue to see a lot of potential in East York. (I'm in the Coxwell and Gerrard area.)

This baffles me, however: The businesses on Coxwell, Gerrard and other nearby streets do not seem to match the people living in the area.

The majority of the people on my street and on surrounding streets have decent jobs, in many cases are well-educated young professionals, some creative types, with basically good salaries and prospects. There is a lot of renovation going on and the neighbourhood has made a noticeable change for the better in just the two years I've been there (during a recession). Before that, housing prices had gone up close to 10 per cent for four years in a row, according to my neighbours.

Aside from a new Goodlife Fitness, whose clientele seems to better reflect who lives in the area, the rest of the businesses are ultra low-end and frequented by a completely different clientele. I know there are several co-op housing facilities on Coxwell, but it still seems way out of proportion given how many houses are on the surrounding streets. I'm curious why the businesses haven't come close to keeping pace with the changes on the surrounding streets. When I speak to my neighbours, I get the sense they would all love to be able to go out and have a drink, meal or coffee close by but wouldn't set foot in any of the places currently around there (myself included). Why the delay?

Hi Oliver,

I'm not exactly sure why exactly there is a delay. Perhaps lease rates are high and businesses would rather invest those amounts in a more established area, perhaps the quality of buildings don't suit what these businesses need, maybe the area just hasn't reached critical mass in terms of traffic and demographics.

Here's what I would do If i was you. I'd call the Orange group and get their opinion on your node

http://www.orangegroup.ca/

Orange group is the company that selects sites for starbucks, wholefoods etc which I'm inferring the businesses you want in the area

 

[Oliver Tweed]

Thanks for the tip, Brian. My guess is that the quality of the buildings is an issue, as demographics may be as well. I doubt that leases are particularly high, given the businesses that are there now.

I don't expect a Starbucks or Whole foods yet, but something that caters to the people coming in and out of the Goodlife, maybe. Virtually anything would be an improvement over what's there now. I would like to see an independent coffee shop with prices that go high enough to keep out the Coffee Time crowd. Sounds like a terrible thing to say, but it's true.

The good news is that home prices in my area continue to increase and there seems to be decent activity judging by the open house signs I see. Perhaps in another couple of years the critical mass will come.

My decision to buy and renovate a home rather than get a finished condo was in part driven by the often-stated argument that owning a plot of real land is preferable to a box in the sky. I'm not sure this is true in terms of resale, however I'm happy where I am (having a nice big back yard and big trees, basement, saying hi to my neighbours, etc. but still on the subway line). Would be nice to have better amenities to walk to though.

 

[CITY_LOVER]

Thanks, Brian.

I also continue to see a lot of potential in East York. (I'm in the Coxwell and Gerrard area.)

This baffles me, however: The businesses on Coxwell, Gerrard and other nearby streets do not seem to match the people living in the area.

The majority of the people on my street and on surrounding streets have decent jobs, in many cases are well-educated young professionals, some creative types, with basically good salaries and prospects. There is a lot of renovation going on and the neighbourhood has made a noticeable change for the better in just the two years I've been there (during a recession). Before that, housing prices had gone up close to 10 per cent for four years in a row, according to my neighbours.

Aside from a new Goodlife Fitness, whose clientele seems to better reflect who lives in the area, the rest of the businesses are ultra low-end and frequented by a completely different clientele. I know there are several co-op housing facilities on Coxwell, but it still seems way out of proportion given how many houses are on the surrounding streets. I'm curious why the businesses haven't come close to keeping pace with the changes on the surrounding streets. When I speak to my neighbours, I get the sense they would all love to be able to go out and have a drink, meal or coffee close by but wouldn't set foot in any of the places currently around there (myself included). Why the delay?

I agree with you for this area (and Toronto in general)....many areas, it seems, don't have the type of retail that you would expect given the affluence of the communities that surround the retail node....not sure why that is; perhaps that's how gentrification works, in that, retail and other such commercial activities lag the residential changes?

 

[cdr108]

I agree with you for this area (and Toronto in general)....many areas, it seems, don't have the type of retail that you would expect given the affluence of the communities that surround the retail node....not sure why that is; perhaps that's how gentrification works, in that, retail and other such commercial activities lag the residential changes?

as brian said, an area needs critical mass in terms of traffic and demographics.

coxwell/gerrard is very much an area 'in transition' ... it was mainly a low-income working class area until it became hip and called leslieville.

 

[AnnetteMeetsJane]

just a thought

Or people are in the habit of getting in their cars and driving to other areas that already have the shopping they want - so there is no motivation for the businesses to go to the shoppers if the shoppers will come to them?

On the original condo v's house question - when you buy a house you buy the land it sits on also. When you buy a condo there is no land involved... The land our house sits on is actually worth more than the house itself. Doesn't that make a house a better long-term prospect?

 

[Oliver Tweed]

Or people are in the habit of getting in their cars and driving to other areas that already have the shopping they want - so there is no motivation for the businesses to go to the shoppers if the shoppers will come to them?

On the original condo v's house question - when you buy a house you buy the land it sits on also. When you buy a condo there is no land involved... The land our house sits on is actually worth more than the house itself. Doesn't that make a house a better long-term prospect?

On the first point, I think it's the other way around (though it's obviously debatable). That is to say, I think people go elsewhere because there's nothing close by. In general, I think it's safe to say that assuming the level of service is the same, people would go to whichever store is closest to them. I know I would.

On the second point, that was my thinking as well. But that doesn't take into account location and especially convenience, two factors that have recently become more important than they used to be. Many of the new condos are on downtown land that has never (or not for a long time) been residential. It's put people right in the centre of things, which in turn is increasing the vibrancy, which is feeding the boom. It's all good for the city in general, but as far as condo vs. house, it favours the condo side of things.

 

[UrbanVigor]

Or people are in the habit of getting in their cars and driving to other areas that already have the shopping they want - so there is no motivation for the businesses to go to the shoppers if the shoppers will come to them?

On the first point, I think it's the other way around (though it's obviously debatable). That is to say, I think people go elsewhere because there's nothing close by. In general, I think it's safe to say that assuming the level of service is the same, people would go to whichever store is closest to them. I know I would.

I agree. The question is then why aren't businesses being motivated to setup shop there? Perhaps it's a great opportunity for local business that's being missed.

 

[BrianPersaud]

I agree. The question is then why aren't businesses being motivated to setup shop there? Perhaps it's a great opportunity for local business that's being missed.

You guys should Read Jane Jacobs - The Death and Life of Great American Cities, it will show you how and why neighborhoods become vibrant

 

[nfitz]

I also continue to see a lot of potential in East York. (I'm in the Coxwell and Gerrard area.)

East York is north of Danforth!

This baffles me, however: The businesses on Coxwell, Gerrard and other nearby streets do not seem to match the people living in the area.

The majority of the people on my street and on surrounding streets have decent jobs, in many cases are well-educated young professionals, some creative types, with basically good salaries and prospects. There is a lot of renovation going on and the neighbourhood has made a noticeable change for the better in just the two years I've been there (during a recession). Before that, housing prices had gone up close to 10 per cent for four years in a row, according to my neighbours.

Aside from a new Goodlife Fitness, whose clientele seems to better reflect who lives in the area, the rest of the businesses are ultra low-end and frequented by a completely different clientele. I know there are several co-op housing facilities on Coxwell, but it still seems way out of proportion given how many houses are on the surrounding streets. I'm curious why the businesses haven't come close to keeping pace with the changes on the surrounding streets. When I speak to my neighbours, I get the sense they would all love to be able to go out and have a drink, meal or coffee close by but wouldn't set foot in any of the places currently around there (myself included). Why the delay?

It is an odd area; and is quite different west of Coxwell; compared to east of Coxwell. I concur with much of what you see though. There are some places that stick out though ... on Upper Gerrard east of Coxwell at Bowmore is a little Irish pub that's pretty basic, but quite interesting. And for coffee or a light meal, there is the Upper Beach Cafe a couple of blocks east of there, closer to Woodbine.

In the meantime, some of the business are rather interesting - I was quite surprised looking for cough drops a couple of years ago, that it was difficult to find someone who was selling some that weren't black market. The Goodwill has been replaced by a higher end dollar store; and now the big lower end dollar store just south of lower Gerrard is suddenly renovating. And of course there is the fantastic Little India area starting at lower Gerrard/Coxwell.

Judging by the house prices I've seen pushed through my door lately, the market has fully recovered; I can only imagine it will keep going up.

 

[Oliver Tweed]

East York is north of Danforth!

I can't believe I didn't realize that. I always assumed East York went down the the water. Interesting. I never lived in Toronto pre-amalgamation so I'm not too familiar with the old boundaries. Toronto East I suppose I should say? East Toronto? Just Toronto?

Anyway, I am familiar with the places you mentioned in the area. My main complaint is the Coxwell and Gerrard intersection and the immediately surrounding area, including the strip of Coxwell just north of there. Although I should mention that the Home Hardware is a notable exception. They have a great basic selection of items, knowledgeable staff and the best service I've ever experienced in a hardware store.

It's a little funny to me that you used the term "high-end dollar store" because I'm pretty sure that's an oxymoron. A dollar store is a dollar store in my books. In speaking to some of my neighbours, I know there was quite a bit of disappointment when we learned the Goodwill was turning into a Dollarama. Although, I suppose it is technically a step up, as you say.

P.S. Brian Persaud - Most people on this forum are familiar with Jane Jacobs, especially that book. I suppose I should rephrase my original question. It's not really so much a question of why hasn't retail quality improved - the underlying factors are fairly straightforward - it's more a question of what's taking so long. I'm pretty sure it will come eventually. The Goodlife was a huge step. If it can stick around I think it will have a positive influence. I think this area is a huge opportunity for an entrepreneur. Housing prices are going up steadily and people are hungry for decent retail.