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Post: TTC to study fast ferries

wyliepoon

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TTC chair wants to explore fast ferries
EAST-WEST COMMUTING

Kelly Patrick
National Post

Wednesday, July 04, 2007

TORONTO - The Toronto Transit Commission is examining the possible purchase of high-speed ferries that could whisk commuters from the outskirts of Scarborough and Etobicoke to the downtown ferry terminal in about 15 minutes.

"The idea of commuting to work on a boat is exciting," TTC chairman Adam Giambrone told the National Post in an interview. "The question is: Can we do it cost effectively? That's the question we have to answer."

Mr. Giambrone sent a memo yesterday to Gary Webster, the chief general manager of the TTC, and to the transit authority's commissioners asking them to support a study of waterborne commuting along the lake's edge.

He plans to move a motion formally requesting a feasibility report at the TTC's July 11 meeting.

The transit authority will likely have to hire an outside consultant at a cost of approximately $15,000 to complete the first phase of study, Mr. Giambrone said.

"In considering the options for improved and expanded transit service in Toronto, we must not overlook the many opportunities presented by our geography," Mr. Giambrone's memo reads. "For east-west travel, one of the possibilities that I believe deserves consideration is high-speed frequent-passenger ferry service across the lake, from one end of the city to the other."

In the interview, Mr. Giambrone stressed the TTC is only beginning to explore the concept, but he provided a rough outline of how year-round waterborne commuting could work in Toronto.

There is abundant parking available near Bluffer's Park Marina in Scarborough, at the foot of Brimley Road South and near Humber Bay Park in Etobicoke, in the area of Lake Shore Boulevard and Park Lawn Road, Mr. Giambrone said.

If docking facilities were built at these two points, passengers could leave their cars at park-and-ride lots to board one of two ferries travelling as fast as 40 knots for a ride to the downtown ferry terminal that could take as little as 15 minutes.

From the terminal, riders could walk to their final destinations or catch the Harbourfront streetcar line to Union Station and points beyond.

Boats would probably have to run every 15 minutes in the morning and evening rush hours to make the scheme viable, Mr. Giambrone said.

"If it works, it could be an incredible boon to people in Etobicoke and Scarborough," he said.

Although the idea is sexy, the TTC should proceed with caution, warned one expert who has looked into the idea before.

Glenn Miller, a former employee with the old Metro Toronto government, explored the concept nearly 20 years ago while helping to develop a waterfront plan.

Now the director of education and research at the Canadian Urban Institute, Mr. Miller said he expects the TTC will struggle to make commuter boats economically viable.

"It's very difficult to make a case for a streetcar-based transportation system along the waterfront, so my gut tells me it would be even harder to make a case for a water-based one."

Still, he added: "I love the idea and it would be wonderful if people could figure out how to make it work."

Mr. Giambrone said the times and the technology have changed to make the idea possible today.

He said there is a renewed international buzz around waterborne commuting because new technology has increased the speed of ferries, while reducing their cost.

The International Association of Public Transit, the world's largest transit organization, has founded a working group to further study fast-ferry commuting.

Passengers already commute on rivers and along coastlines in Paris, London, New York, Boston, San Francisco and Vancouver, among other cities, although in many of these places a private company runs the service.

Halifax is poised to join the list.

The Halifax Regional Municipality council has approved a $20-million plan to upgrade terminal facilities and buy two high-speed ferries with a capacity of 250 passengers each to make daily trips from the suburban town of Bedford to downtown Halifax.

The waterborne trip takes 13 minutes one way, a significant reduction from the 40 minutes the journey takes by bus or the 30 minutes it takes by car.

Len Goucher, a member of the provincial legislature and a former Halifax Regional councillor, has championed the project for years and hopes it will be up and sailing in a few years or sooner.

In October, 2005, Halifax borrowed the Whaling City Express, a fast ferry that services Martha's Vineyard, for a trial.

"We ran it for two days up and down the harbour from Bedford and it was full every trip. I mean they were lined up," Mr. Goucher said.
 
Awesome! Now we're talking. Behold the advantage of having young minds at the helm of the TTC: new ideas.
 
Driving down to Bluffers Park to take a ferry that takes you to the ferry terminal will be a novelty ride, not a serious mode for commuting.
 
I give credit to anyone with new ideas. But there's the little problem of ice on Lake Ontario in the winter. It would take a pretty big and strong ferry boat, I would expect, to break through it, or a separate icebreaker.
 
Steve Munro both takes credit for the idea (see his hilarious Swan Boat threads, a insider critique of transit "planning" over the past 25 years) and rightly pans it.

Better to fix Queen Street to make it a real option for the mid west and mid east parts of town with the Waterfront and Kingston Road LRTs.
 
Yes, but how would you go about fixing Queen Street? The line has been wildly unreliable and bleeding ridership for years, but the TTC hasn't so much as written a report with suggestions on how to fix it. I'm not just talking about running at a reliable headway either, though that would certainly be a good start. I also mean making travel times remotely competitive. It's absurd that it's far faster to take the bus up to the subway, and then the subway back down to get from the Beach to Queen and Yonge.

On the topic of the ferries, they're a great idea. I'd like to see them, as well as the island ferries integrated into the TTC fare system. The islands are the city's most neglected resource, mostly since it costs almost 50 bucks for a family to visit. In Sydney, the ferries are a very popular mode of transport. While they're most popular when they're the quickest way (Manly, for example), they are still very well-used out to the Olympic Park and toward Paramatta despite the parallel rail service.
 
A streetcar subway through the most congested section (Jarvis to Bathurst would make a good start). Wouldn't cost that much more than procuring ferries and building new termini.
 
Oh, silly. This should die quickly the moment it gets any serious study. And don't think that Giambrone's youth and 'fresh blood' gives him a monopoly on new ideas (read: ideas taken from other cities, not that there's anything wrong with that), Moscoe was full of schemes as well. In fact, I think people are treating this differently simply because it's coming from Giambrone rather than Moscoe.

Where to start? Abundant parking at Bluffers Park? For a 250-person ferry every 15 mins during rush? It's not as if there's anyone within walking distance and how many buses do they plan to reroute there?
I count 20km from Bluffer's to the current Ferry terminal (around the spit and through the eastern gap), so that's about 20 mins at an average 60 km/h, and toss in the added time to get to Bluffer's and from the ferry terminal to the CBD. For 20 mins each way and 10 mins loading, we've got an hour round trip, so we'd need four of these ferries to offer a 15-minute service just to Bluffer's.

This proposal is a nice sign of the dysfunction of transit services here in Toronto/Ontario. Yet again, we are willing to spend millions and millions on expensive redundant infrastructure because it's still seen as easier than fare integration between two different transit agencies and GO service improvments.
 
Now if a new Brimley funicular to connect with the ferry terminal was part of the plan, I might get excited. The whole idea of ferries to Scarborough where the only realistic connection points are at Rouge Hill and Bluffer's Park is just silly. The west end makes a bit more sense given the easier terrain and more practical connections, but even this doesn't warrant much study - better use of the Lakeshore line, a fix to Queen Street and DRL are each complementary alternatives that will work much better.

This is the first really silly thing I've seen from Giambrone, who is otherwise a great commish compared to the likes of Moscoe. I guess it's officially summer silly season.
 
I say cancel the study, get the $15,000 in 5 dollar bills and have a giant bonfire on the Islands. It'd attract a helluva lotta people to the island and at least we'd get something out of it besides a report that will never result in anything. No one wanted to take a Ferry to New York state, why would they want to take one to Scarborough?
 
Wow. Le bad idea. So you park your car in Etobicoke, get on the fast ferry, then what? You're stuck at Bluffers Park. Anyone tried getting transit from Bluffer's Park? I used to live there. Best bet is to swim down to Neville Park loop and get the Queen car from there.

This is a little disheartening.
 
huh? Its only $6 (return trip included) for adults and $2.50 for children (return included)

Students under 19 pay $3.50 with student ID.

The fares aren't bad at all.

I think the $50 was suppose to be including food and/or a couple of those all day ride passes @ Centreville for the Kids. (tho a picnic would obviously cut those costs a lot). There is no way to go to Centreville with young kids and not get suckered into that stupid theme park.
 
I think the idea is probably a non-starter, but I can't fault Giambrone for suggesting the study - especially seeing as the (according to the Metro today) that province is supporting the study. If nothing else, it gets people talking about how to get people downtown.

One of the other problems with this is once downtown at the ferry docks, where do people go? Transfering from the ferry to the street car for one stop to the subway seems like more transfers than people would be willing to take.

Yes, but how would you go about fixing Queen Street?

Dig a big trench, and run ferries in it! :rolleyes:
 

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