Moss Park Armoury

[balenciaga]

Does anything think it makes any sense for the Armoury to sit in the location it currently occupies?

I walked past it many times never understanding what it is and why it is there and what purpose it serves. Until I did some research online which says: it will continue to provide training grounds for over 600 soldiers and reservists, and will continue to baffle people trying to get inside.

Why do we need an amoury to trains soldiers in the heart of downtown Toronto? This particular one sits at Queen and Jarvis, already somewhat an unpleasing location. It is very unfriendly and sterile looking. Hardly anyone knows what's happening and seldom see anyone walking inside. It takes so much space and occupies such prime real estate land, which is absurd.

It will make more sense to redevelop it into something either residential, or commercial or some public space.
However it was even renovated 2 years ago and seems to stay forever?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Why shouldn't it be there? While the architecture of the Moss Part Armoury might be questionable, the use isn't IMO. First of all the land is owned by the Federal Government if I am not mistaken - which means no one else would have the authority to dictate its' use. Second, what is fundamentally wrong with having an Armoury in downtown? Nothing - many cities around the world has the same arrangement with no ill effect. Personally, I think they should have saved the University Ave Armoury instead, but one can't exactly turn back the clock.

Now, the only "black mark" I can think of on record is the case of how a few CF reservists beat up and killed a homeless man a couple of years ago. That instance is the personal failure of the individuals in question, not an issue with the function of the facility itself.

AoD

 

[AndreaPalladio]

I think it makes no sense, either in form or in function, but there it is.

If I had my druthers, I'd rebuild George Street here, and put housing on the block bounded by George, Queen, Jarvis & Mutual. The eyes on Moss Park would make it better too.

 

[gabe]

Other cities have Armories downtown. it's really not that uncommon. Lots of churches and other holy buildings occupy prime real estate downtown should we tear those down too?

 

[diminutive]

I'm always surprised this place didn't get closed down like Downsview in the 90s. Urban military facilities are quite rare these days...

You'd think the DND could sell this off at a tidy profit and move its units elsewhere.

Though, MPA also contributes to the forces diversity. Moving all DND facilities to rural areas would probably limit the Forces' appeal to urban/diverse communities. There was an article about how hard it was, in terms of commuting, for New Yorker to join the reserves.

 

[spires]

There are two facilities in downtown Toronto that house Army reserve units: Fort York Armoury and Moss Park Armoury. After that, you've got to go all the way up to Downsview or west to Mimico. Fort York Armoury already has three units there and it's probably unrealistic to think they could absorb all of Moss Park's soldiers.

Remember that training and general unit activity for reservists often takes place on weekday evenings, so you can't just send them to Borden. The units have to be reasonably close to where people live. If you don't have units in downtown Toronto, that's a huge population that won't be able to participate without hardship.

There might be other sites that are more appropriate than the current location. It's worth remembering, however, that (1) an armoury cannot be part of a mixed-use site, for security reasons and because it's inappropriate to put a potential warfare target in the same building as civilian apartments, and (2) an armoury has fairly stringent physical requirements. To replace Moss Park, you'd need a facility that can house offices, messes, a parade square, and storage for vehicles, weapons, and artillery pieces. Wherever it goes, it's going to be taking up substantial space that could be used for other things.

I'd make one other point. If you take the CF out of the cities, you wind up with a growing physical and cultural separation between the country's civilian population and its armed forces. That's not good for either, really.

 

[balenciaga]

Other cities have Armories downtown. it's really not that uncommon. Lots of churches and other holy buildings occupy prime real estate downtown should we tear those down too?

your analogy makes no sense.
People visit churches frequently. Nobody visits the armoury. Have you or any of your friends, family members or even acquaintances?
Plus churches are beautiful. The armoury is cold and ugly.

 

[Memph]

There are two facilities in downtown Toronto that house Army reserve units: Fort York Armoury and Moss Park Armoury. After that, you've got to go all the way up to Downsview or west to Mimico. Fort York Armoury already has three units there and it's probably unrealistic to think they could absorb all of Moss Park's soldiers.

Remember that training and general unit activity for reservists often takes place on weekday evenings, so you can't just send them to Borden. The units have to be reasonably close to where people live. If you don't have units in downtown Toronto, that's a huge population that won't be able to participate without hardship.

There might be other sites that are more appropriate than the current location. It's worth remembering, however, that (1) an armoury cannot be part of a mixed-use site, for security reasons and because it's inappropriate to put a potential warfare target in the same building as civilian apartments, and (2) an armoury has fairly stringent physical requirements. To replace Moss Park, you'd need a facility that can house offices, messes, a parade square, and storage for vehicles, weapons, and artillery pieces. Wherever it goes, it's going to be taking up substantial space that could be used for other things.

I'd make one other point. If you take the CF out of the cities, you wind up with a growing physical and cultural separation between the country's civilian population and its armed forces. That's not good for either, really.

Nonetheless, couldn't they make some money by selling their downtown site and buying a similar sized site in a place Golden Mile, or even the Port Lands for much less?

 

[taal]

Actually given the location ... they're probably better off holding the land till more of the area gentrifies ... which has been a very slow process Queen E (before the DVP).
A lot of lots left close to Queen and Church. I think maybe 20 years from now the land will be worth a lot more.

 

[DavidJamesTO]

Could the armoury be jointly housed in a new building to replace HMCS York? Windsor's HMCS Hunter will also host an army reserve detachment in its new building.

 

[UserNameToronto]

The Moss Park Armoury building itself is ugly and intimidating. Its presence didn't improve after a large perimeter fence was installed around 2006-07.

In 2005 a few reservists beat up, and indeed killed, a homeless man in the adjacent park: http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/409148--i-saw-homeless-man-beaten-witness-says

I'd be pretty happy for the Armoury to close down and be developed into just about anything else. Not exactly a good neighbour.

 

[jozl]

Queen Street East is in dire need of development. The armoury is one of the impediments to foster in that development. I've spoken to Pam McConnell the councilor for the ward several times about this. She is in agreement and has suggested the armoury be moved or ,at least, improved for years to no avail (it's a federal holding). Granted, the deadbeat parking lot east of Church on the north side of Queen E, the less than inspiring park adjacent to the John Innes Rec centre, the plethora of men's homeless shelters at ground zero (Queen E and Sherbourne), and the derelict land around Moss Park (as well as Moss Park itself) all add up to some pretty major impediments. I often ride my bike along Queen East and as soon as I cross Yonge Street the dynamic changes (for the better) drastically. The difference between Queen Street East and West is enormous. I don't understand how miserable intersections like Queen Street E and Church, Jarvis, or Sherbourne are left to rot considering that they sit on some of the most expensive downtown real estate in Canada's largest city. Maybe getting rid of (or moving) the armoury would act as a catalyst to improve this miserable part of downtown.

 

[CapitalSeven]

Interesting that the Toronto armoury is perceived as expendable because it's ugly. The one in downtown Ottawa occupies a prime site on the canal, but no one (currently) would think of demolishing it because it's very handsome and very old. A posting on the Urbsite blog this week indicates that it was considered for demolition in the 1950's, but what wasn't back then? http://urbsite.blogspot.ca/

 

[khris]

It is really quiet hideous, and places like this only help make the neighbourhood feel cold and uninviting. It's not that I don't think an armoury has it's place in Toronto or even downtown, but it should feel like it's part of the city, not some fenced fortress.

 

[spires]

She is in agreement and has suggested the armoury be moved or ,at least, improved for years

Improved how? Aesthetically? I doubt the complaints expressed in this thread are going to be satisfied by planting some pretty flowers on the front lawn.