FUN in Toronto (for profit of course, plus for fun too).

[Rock]

So, I recently had conversations with some folks in Scarborough...

About building at least one "world class" FUNicular... (It is a word in the English language, for any that may not know. Search Goggle for the word.)

So off some road running south off the road to Kings Town ("Kingston Road"), down some section of the "Scarborough Bluffs" (old shoreline of glacial "Lake Iroquois"), for the people of Toronto, and as a tourist attraction.

Currently I am interested in hearing any "concerns" from anyone that is a citizen of Scarborough/Toronto about the concept (already in use for many years in other parts of the world).

Your thoughts please?
L

 

[Rock]

Well, well... About eight hours later, and according to this online forum sortware my first post here on the subject of a funicular for the City of Toronto and visitors has been seen by near one hundred persons, yet no reply or one thought yet?

OK, the next time anyone sees one of our TTC "streetcars", perhaps someone might ask the operator how many might they carry at one time (obviously a strong fellow or lady... hehe), and if our vehicles can run on steel rails (Careful, they might tell you they think you are crazy.)

If the reader has done ANY research on the funicular they will know that the vehicle has one advantage over the street car, and that is gravity?

And probably any reader has already rider on a funicular, termed commonly an "elevator".

Anyway... Hillside/cliff escalators can use steel or kevlar cables and counter-weights... to counter-balance ALL of the weight of the escalator.

Are there ANY here that have not been up the CN tower??? Think of this idea as "CN Tower-Lite" maybe.

Locals concerned about visitor car traffic? Simple answer perhaps. Just sell a limited number of re-useable one-time passes in advance for the day and time of the next convenient trip from one or many other destinations. (Maybe think TTC tokens.)

I know there is at least one area business that has told me he would appreciate some more business. (You can ask the fellow that owns and manages the Wimpy's Diner at 1496 Kingston Road.)

Kelly Jackson (President of Branch 13 of the Royal Canadian Legion at 1577 Kingston Road), is a busy gentleman, but did tell me he would "consider" the idea and "get back to me".

The reader will correctly assume I have given this idea some thought and research.

Folks will know it has been many years since the people built the Leslie Street Spit, aka the Outer Harbour East Headland. Today the "Tommy Thompson Park", out of Toronto ground removed from basements, etc.

The reason why I mention this in this context/thread, is that at the bottom of the Scarborough Bluffs there is of course Bluffer's Park, and elsewhere along that shoreline is beach that might be enlarged, but is largely unreachable from above.

Perhaps some have see the view from the 99 Steps... in Scarborough. Here is a Youtube video:
[video=youtube;8e2OIcPRDOA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e2OIcPRDOA[/video]

(That is the city of Scarborough on the North Sea coast of North Yorkshire in England. One suburb of that town named Whitby, which may sound familiar to some in Toronto... hehe.)

About 25 miles north of THAT Scarborough, the seaside resort Saltburn by the Sea, featuring the oldest surviving "tramway" in the UK. It was built in 1881 by the Central Tramway Company, the same company that owns and runs the tram today.

See here:
http://www.saltburnbysea.com/html/clifflift.html

It opens from 9am until 5pm daily. The cost is .75 British "Pound Sterling" each way (currently about a buck-fifty Canadian currency).

Today a modern fully automated "cliff lift" might operate 24hrs a day.

With attractions at beach level eg a man-made pond/outdoor skating space, perhaps year `round (and like the "Leslie Street Spit" natural plants and wild life should re-invade) "lift" ride fares.

Anyway... Again as with Tommy Thompson Park, the people of Toronto have done a project like this before.

And again I have to ask... Is there ANYONE in Toronto that likes this idea and can see the possibilities???

 

[khris]

Your post is weird, and I'm not sure what the point of it is.
Are you asking what people think of the idea of having a fuicular on the Bluffs in Scarborough?
What was the point in posting that video? I'm confused.

 

[Rock]

Hi Khristopher! (Cool name BTW.) As I said, for PROFIT and for fun.
For the record, I would like to see some mix of any profits split in some sharing between the Toronto Parks and the TTC, who I suspect have some facility with maintaining streetcar tracks and electric vehicles, etc. (Smile.) And by the way, I wish the City donated some annual amount to that Branch 13 of our Legion (many of my family have served in our Canadian military. Most as officers, some senior, for many generations).

Thank you for having the courage to speak up! (And I am sorry about any confusion on anyone's part... including my own. Hehe...)

 

[junior43]

Well, well... About eight hours later, and according to this online forum sortware my first post here on the subject of a funicular for the City of Toronto and visitors has been seen by near one hundred persons, yet no reply or one thought yet?

OK, the next time anyone sees one of our TTC "streetcars", perhaps someone might ask the operator how many might they carry at one time (obviously a strong fellow or lady... hehe), and if our vehicles can run on steel rails (Careful, they might tell you they think you are crazy.)

If the reader has done ANY research on the funicular they will know that the vehicle has one advantage over the street car, and that is gravity?

And probably any reader has already rider on a funicular, termed commonly an "elevator".

Anyway... Hillside/cliff escalators can use steel or kevlar cables and counter-weights... to counter-balance ALL of the weight of the escalator.

Are there ANY here that have not been up the CN tower??? Think of this idea as "CN Tower-Lite" maybe.

Locals concerned about visitor car traffic? Simple answer perhaps. Just sell a limited number of re-useable one-time passes in advance for the day and time of the next convenient trip from one or many other destinations. (Maybe think TTC tokens.)

I know there is at least one area business that has told me he would appreciate some more business. (You can ask the fellow that owns and manages the Wimpy's Diner at 1496 Kingston Road.)

Kelly Jackson (President of Branch 13 of the Royal Canadian Legion at 1577 Kingston Road), is a busy gentleman, but did tell me he would "consider" the idea and "get back to me".

The reader will correctly assume I have given this idea some thought and research.

Folks will know it has been many years since the people built the Leslie Street Spit, aka the Outer Harbour East Headland. Today the "Tommy Thompson Park", out of Toronto ground removed from basements, etc.

The reason why I mention this in this context/thread, is that at the bottom of the Scarborough Bluffs there is of course Bluffer's Park, and elsewhere along that shoreline is beach that might be enlarged, but is largely unreachable from above.

Perhaps some have see the view from the 99 Steps... in Scarborough. Here is a Youtube video:
[video=youtube;8e2OIcPRDOA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e2OIcPRDOA[/video]

(That is the city of Scarborough on the North Sea coast of North Yorkshire in England. One suburb of that town named Whitby, which may sound familiar to some in Toronto... hehe.)

About 25 miles north of THAT Scarborough, the seaside resort Saltburn by the Sea, featuring the oldest surviving "tramway" in the UK. It was built in 1881 by the Central Tramway Company, the same company that owns and runs the tram today.

See here:
http://www.saltburnbysea.com/html/clifflift.html

It opens from 9am until 5pm daily. The cost is .75 British "Pound Sterling" each way (currently about a buck-fifty Canadian currency).

Today a modern fully automated "cliff lift" might operate 24hrs a day.

With attractions at beach level eg a man-made pond/outdoor skating space, perhaps year `round (and like the "Leslie Street Spit" natural plants and wild life should re-invade) "lift" ride fares.

Anyway... Again as with Tommy Thompson Park, the people of Toronto have done a project like this before.

And again I have to ask... Is there ANYONE in Toronto that likes this idea and can see the possibilities???

You've done research? I highly doubt it.

1. How do you plan to install an angled railway into soft eroding clay? How do the deer and other wildlife migrate past this?
2. Where do you put the parking lot at the top? The Guild Inn looks like the only feasible place for any potential gondola - not funicular. Which means you have to build an entirely new park at the shore. Another option is East point.
3. More beaches? How about you google Meadowcliffe Dr erosion control project. There's a reason the Scarborough bluffs beach is the only beach Between Vic Park and Meadowvale and the rest is reinforced with armour stones.
4. The most picturesque part of the Bluffs is at Bluffers park, all the rest is generally the same (and different from) Bluffers park. Also, it's already packed in summers, it doesn't need any promotion, it is already very well used in summer - people already park on the sidestreets at the top because the parking lots get too full.

I'd be fine with building another park at the bottom further east, there's just no physical way to install a funicular - maybe a gondola, but there's no way you can fit one in at Bluffers.

 

[Rock]

Comments interspersed below:

"How do you plan to install an angled railway into soft eroding clay?"

Typically, engineers drill and install iron/steel strengthing. At least they do in Toronto (all the time).



"How do the deer and other wildlife migrate past this?"

I am not sure much wildlife that walks on foot do much clambering on the cliff face. (Birds would not be too inconvenienced hopefully.)


"Where do you put the parking lot at the top?"

For the volume of car traffic contemplated, there are already much available unused land within easy walking distances.


"More beaches? How about you google Meadowcliffe Dr erosion control project. There's a reason the Scarborough bluffs beach is the only beach Between Vic Park and Meadowvale and the rest is reinforced with armour stones."

And/or stone "breakers"/whatever that project out off the beach into the water. I guess maybe the concern is rough, breaking waves? (Obviously not a concern higher up.)


"The most picturesque part of the Bluffs is at Bluffers park, all the rest is generally the same (and different from) Bluffers park.

Also, it's already packed in summers, it doesn't need any promotion, it is already very well used in summer - people already park on the
sidestreets at the top because the parking lots get too full."

And a little more beach might be popular too. Easier to reach via public transportation, and closer to downtown.


"I'd be fine with building another park at the bottom further east, there's just no physical way to install a funicular - maybe a gondola, but there's no way you can fit one in at Bluffers."

Again, the cliff might be reinforced. (Some area property owners will thank you.)

There are many examples of funiculars and gondolas... although gondolas usually are perhaps more often used to traverse large valleys, etc.


Thank you for your thoughts! (Others here seem more interested in attacking the writer, rather than the idea.)

Cheers
L

 

[Rock]

Speaking of Scarborough Bluffs erosion, the Toronto Star newspaper almost one year ago, here:
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201..._offers_hope_to_those_living_on_the_edge.html

And the TRCA plan here:
http://www.trca.on.ca/dotAsset/159043.pdf

Not much about access as a world class tourist attraction to another tourist/local tourist destination perhaps. I wonder how much they have budgetted for the "acquisition of private lands" (out of a "preliminary budget of $70+ million). Anybuddy know?

There is of course plenty of derelict lands for parking at the top of the cliffs. And some might wonder how much a Bachelor of Environmental Studies, Natural Resources Management (the person that prepared the study) might know about funicular design and construction as a tourist attraction.

At a glance, that study also appears to ignore lands and lake to the west of Bluffers Park.

 

[junior43]

Speaking of Scarborough Bluffs erosion, the Toronto Star newspaper almost one year ago, here:
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201..._offers_hope_to_those_living_on_the_edge.html

And the TRCA plan here:
http://www.trca.on.ca/dotAsset/159043.pdf

Not much about access as a world class tourist attraction to another tourist/local tourist destination perhaps. I wonder how much they have budgetted for the "acquisition of private lands" (out of a "preliminary budget of $70+ million). Anybuddy know?

There is of course plenty of derelict lands for parking at the top of the cliffs. And some might wonder how much a Bachelor of Environmental Studies, Natural Resources Management (the person that prepared the study) might know about funicular design and construction as a tourist attraction.

At a glance, that study also appears to ignore lands and lake to the west of Bluffers Park.

Please point out one piece of derelict land west of Bluffers that can have parking at the top and support a funicular to the bottom?

 

[Rock]

Please point out one piece of derelict land west of Bluffers that can have parking at the top and support a funicular to the bottom?

Hello JR. I don't know if/when you last travelled along Kingston Road east of Victoria Park Ave., but there are now numerous derelict properties eg a gas station, un-mowed lot, etc. bordering KR near Birchcliff. Developers buying up old houses (one "available for rent" since last year), etc. They anticipate the "boom" that had happened already just to the west, my guess. Many of these properties are within a block or two on the cliff edge (perhaps this is "too far" for many to walk/stagger to/from their vehicles). (And most houses on those properties south of KR still lookin' pretty "spendy". KR is like a direct pipeline for car drivers, etc into the downtown Toronto core, and not far further west you can drop down to the end of Queen Street East shopping, restos, the RC Harris Water Filtration Plant grounds, etc., etc., etc.

Any funicular would of course have to be built on footings/pilings to bear most of the not-very-heavy weight (relative to the many buildings along the cliff top at this section of the "Scarborough Bluffs", any funicular device would be a "fly weight", and supports embedded in the cliff should in fact help stabilize the land.)

EDIT: It basically represents what could be a stretch of current shoreline that is going to waste for recreation.

 

[Rock]

Seen here:
http://www.trca.on.ca/dotAsset/148562.pdf

In part:

Sunnybrook Diamict
The Sunnybrook diamict (poorly sorted sediment with a wide range of grain sizes) is a massive dark grey clayey silt with scattered rounded stones that separates the Scarborough Formation from the overlying Thorncliffe Formation. This unit is interpreted to be the result of sediment accumulation in a deep, ancestral Lake Ontario, with stones rafted in from the adjacent glacial ice. This unit is only present in Mimico Creek watershed, beneath the headwaters and the outlet and does not occur at surface.

Thorncliffe Formation
The Thorncliffe Formation deposits represent glaciofluvial deposition of sand and silty sand within pre-existing valleys. Further to the south, the deposits comprise predominantly glaciolacustrine silt, sand and pebbly silt and clay deposited by glacial meltwaters entering a deep, ice-dammed ancestral “Lake Ontario”. The basal part of this unit is often marked by alternating thin layers of silt and clay.

Seen here:
http://planetrocks.ca/s8-cathedral-bluffs/

In part:

At Cathedral Bluffs, just west of Brimley Road marina, the tall impressive cliffs are cut by deep gullies leaving ”spires.” Here the cliffs are made up almost entirely of the Sunnybrook diamict, which blankets the Scarborough formation and records a large deep glacial lake that flooded Southern Ontario about 40,000 years ago.

Look for the well-developed bedding in the upper cliffs. Prominent cracks are present in the cliffs so be very careful of the large blocks that often fall from the cliff faces.

And here:
http://trca.on.ca/trca-user-uploads/ShorelineManagementProgram-WatershedPlan.pdf

In part:

(Much of that document talks about "wave actions" and "lake water levels", which again might not be relevant to the cliffs above the lake other than eating away at their bottoms.)

 

[junior43]

Hello JR. I don't know if/when you last travelled along Kingston Road east of Victoria Park Ave., but there are now numerous derelict properties eg a gas station, un-mowed lot, etc. bordering KR near Birchcliff. Developers buying up old houses (one "available for rent" since last year), etc. They anticipate the "boom" that had happened already just to the west, my guess. Many of these properties are within a block or two on the cliff edge (perhaps this is "too far" for many to walk/stagger to/from their vehicles). (And most houses on those properties south of KR still lookin' pretty "spendy". KR is like a direct pipeline for car drivers, etc into the downtown Toronto core, and not far further west you can drop down to the end of Queen Street East shopping, restos, the RC Harris Water Filtration Plant grounds, etc., etc., etc.

Any funicular would of course have to be built on footings/pilings to bear most of the not-very-heavy weight (relative to the many buildings along the cliff top at this section of the "Scarborough Bluffs", any funicular device would be a "fly weight", and supports embedded in the cliff should in fact help stabilize the land.)

I've, been living in this area for 40+ years. I've walked along the waters edge from Vic Park to Morningside numerous times as well, so ya, I'm a little familiar.

So, around Kalmar from what you said. And you feel people will instantly flock to an attraction (you know, being able to see all the various differing levels/types of sediment) with parking that's at least 300M from your mythical funicular - and that has no transit except busses, still 300 meters away. Nevermind having to buy these derelict lands and making one big parking lot - that's used for 6 months of the year - and the fact this area of the bluffs is so covered in shrubs and trees that you can't see the reason for it to be an attraction, you'll basically be looking at a forested hill. Yep, that'll work great. I'm sure the locals of that street where you place the funicular will be huge fans too. As you say, their houses are kinda spendy. They'll just love the additional foot traffic (and garbage from littering) to what was once a quiet street with only local traffic. That'll really add value, I'm sure.

There's a reason Bluffers Park is located where it is............and there's nowhere west of it that makes anything close to sense.

I thought you said you researched this? Or did you just research funicular?

 

[Rock]

Hi JR. Comments interspersed below:
"I've, been living in this area for 40+ years. I've walked along the waters edge from Vic Park to Morningside numerous times as well, so ya, I'm a little familiar."

Yah. My first time officially living in Scarborough myself. Have "hit the beach" via catamaran sailboat a few times and been sailing around Toronto since about 1973. Have a good friend now north of me, up Brimley Road in Agincourt that I have visited many times, for years.

I have lived in East York, and also in Parkdale south of Queen. I guess since I have lived in Toronto I have sort of gravitated closer and closer to the lake (smile).

The closest I have lived? Both on Wards and on Algonquin (which islands I guess are of course formed from stuff flaking off the Scarborough Bluffs. Hehe.)


" So, around Kalmar from what you said."

Had to look "kalmar" up. So between Birchmount and Warden Ave, but perhaps on the wrong (North) side.


"And you feel people will instantly flock to an attraction (you know, being able to see all the various differing levels/types of sediment)"

I hadn't thought of that. Perhaps, but I was thinking folks might view the view east/west/south/up/down.


"With parking that's at least 300M from your mythical funicular"

You are forgetting the shuttle bus/carriage (which I haven't mentioned, but may serve. Estimated trip time from parking lot to funicular perhaps 3-4 minutes at a relaxed pace).


" - and that has no transit except busses, still 300 meters away."

TTC buses along this strip of KR run pretty frequently, both east and west, turning north back to subway stations. But I accept, 300 meters is a looong way for many to trudge (walk). Perhaps a car might drop off passengers and gear at the funicular, then struggle by themselves back from the parking lot. (Taking frequent breaks to recover of course.)


"Nevermind having to buy these derelict lands and making one big parking lot"

Or a few smaller ones... And why has the land been idle anyway? (Can you say the word "expropriation"?)


"- that's used for 6 months of the year"

I believe earlier in this thread I suggested this service might operate year `round (for skating etc.)


"and the fact this area of the bluffs is so covered in shrubs and trees that you can't see the reason for it to be an attraction, you'll basically be looking at a forested hill. Yep, that'll work great."

I have been many times on the Leslie Street Spit, both walking and bicycling and by sailboat, pulling the boat up on the beaches. The Spit is alive with "stuff" (aka "nature") if one might open their eyes.


"I'm sure the locals of that street where you place the funicular will be huge fans too. As you say, their houses are kinda spendy."

Again, I expect many might like some reinforcing of the Scarborough Bluffs in their area.


"They'll just love the additional foot traffic (and garbage from littering) to what was once a quiet street with only local traffic.
That'll really add value, I'm sure."

Any garbage littering is of course inexcusable. Any found making any mess might enjoy some "garbage details". But yeah, sailing/boat camping on Big Rideau Lake, first stop involved filling bags of garbage left by others. (Add CCTV to the list to add to the funicular area, both at the top and at the bottom.)


"There's a reason Bluffers Park is located where it is..."

One might suppose built off the ravine travelled up/down Brimley Road South?


"...and there's nowhere west of it that makes anything close to sense."

See "funicular", mentioned in this thread.


"I thought you said you researched this? Or did you just research funicular?"

Well, there are many funiculars all over North America:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_funicular_railways#North_America

... and I have seen many in Europe. Researched what, may I ask? It is this section of the Scarborough Bluffs west of Bluffers Park I suspect might benefit from be reinforced (as has already been done extensively on most sections) and used for the enjoyment of folks in Toronto plus tourists.

 

[Rock]

BTW, from the city of Pamplona in Spain, an outdoor elevator to a "Walkway in the Sky" design commissioned by their city council being considered, seen eg. here:
http://www.dezeen.com/2014/03/06/a-...tor-connects-the-city-and-suburb-in-pamplona/

Of course, it remains to be seen if the citizens of Pamplona will raise "problems" with the concept.

 

[Rock]

Hmmm... One week gone by, but no further thoughts on the funicular idea? (Partly to help support our crumbling cliff/shoreline?)

I know at least one person has expessed their "concerns" (about a subject they may or may not have thought about much).

This pic might look familiar to some:

The city of Sidmouth in Devon UK has a bit of a "problem" with the hillsides (steep "cliffs") getting kinda soaked, plus the ocean has been battering away there, for perhaps many thousands of years. A UK newspaper wrote "Dozen homes worth £500,000 each on the brink of collapsing into the sea after appalling weather speeds up cliff erosion", here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...a-appalling-weather-speeds-cliff-erosion.html

Other parts in the UK have been worrying/studying their"problem" with their "Jurassic Coast":
http://jurassiccoast.org/conserving-the-coast/coastal-erosion-and-coast-protection

These folks in New Zealand have some thoughts about "piling, slip stabilisation, ground anchors, retaining walls, civil structures, and drainage" (and "contaminated site remediation" too):
http://www.contractlandscapes.co.nz...apesNZ/files/CLL_Company_Profile_-_May_13.pdf

The company Contract Landscapes in Auckland, on the New Zealand north Island:

Where they have their own "Queen Street" (look familiar?):

... apparently CN builds towers everywhere. (Hehe... Actually their "Sky Tower" stands 328 metres high, versus the CN Tower at 553m. And THEIR tower opened in 1997, versus our tower in 1976 - one example of "tower envy" perhaps, but of course Canadians got it up higher. Hehe)

Might anyone else in Toronto have something maybe more thoughtful regarding having our own FUNicular in Toronto?