Do you consider Toronto a clean city (in terms of city streets etc.)

[wild goose chase]

I have heard people say Toronto is fairly clean in terms of city streets, but I wonder how much of that is a reflection of things like newer growth with shinier buildings and subways than many US cities like NY and Chicago, having grown recently from a time when its population was smaller relative to US cities, and thus having less decaying buildings and also comparisons with grittier Northeastern or Midwestern US cities?

Do you consider Toronto to be clean as a city? Of course, like in every city there is litter on the streets etc. but overall, what do you think based on experiences with cities either in North America or worldwide?

 

[Adjei]

As usual with many things in Toronto, things are compared with America and then we like to pat ourselves in the back. I don't think the city is particularly dirt but I also don't think it's too clean. I would say it's in the middle. I believe what makes it worse is how "rundown" most of the city looks. Walk around the city, downtown or anywhere and you see how we don't have any culture of maintenance. Hydro wires, rusted up hydro poles, patched up sidewalks, parks which do not look maintained, public squares not maintained, roads which are not in good condition. It just seems things keep getting worse. Stroll around Yonge and Dundas which is supposed to be the centre of the city akin to Times Square filled with rusted poles all over the place. I took a walk around downtown and even though the place is booming, public realm is terrible. We need to see a similar level in our public realm and public spaces. To me how clean a city is not just about garbage that you find on the floor. One thing I liked walking around downtown is that I started to see more of the black garbage boxes instead of those bulky gray ones.

 

[animatronic]

"My girlfriend said 'kiss me somewhere dirty', so I drove her to Hamilton."

 

[christiesplits]

As far as general litter or strewn garbage is concerned, I think Toronto is above-average for North American standards. However, as adjei noted, our overall street-level infrastructure and utilities look much more run down, which could give the impression that Toronto is dirty.

 

[the lemur]

I don't think Toronto is going to blow anyone away with its level of overall cleanliness or tidiness. We have some sidewalks that could use a good regular pressure-washing and a lot of shabby street infrastructure. I find there's also a level of indifference to how things look after a necessary repair job is done that is fairly infuriating at times. Like when utility work requires a big rectangular hole to be cut through the asphalt of the road, but then when it's completed no one bothers to repaint the pedestrian crossing stripes that have a big chunk taken out of them. Or decorative pavers get removed from a sidewalk for repairs, the stones go missing and then the hole is closed up with sloppily applied asphalt instead. Uneven sidewalks are really starting to piss me off too.

 

[King of Kensington]

In the 80s, Toronto was referred to as "New York run by the Swiss."

 

[kEiThZ]

In the 80s, Toronto was referred to as "New York run by the Swiss."

And we've been sitting on our laurels since. Nobody would believe that phrase today. I'd like us to get back to that standard.

 

[the lemur]

In the 80s, Toronto was referred to as "New York run by the Swiss."

I think that one can sort of go into the Toronto's urban myths thread.

Peter Ustinov said it, after a visit that may have been brief and superficial. However, it's not entirely clear that he meant it as a compliment. It's not hard to imagine he was impressed with some hotel/restaurant service and thought 'Well, this is not what I'm used to in North America'. Or he could have meant that he was reminded of New York (big, busy, lots of tall buildings) but with some of the less than complimentary attributes ascribed to Swiss cities: tidy, dull, soulless, business-like, impersonal.

I have a feeling people seized on it because it was a favourable comparison to New York AND it conveyed a coveted association with Europe.

If he did mean something like the Swiss reputation for being well organized, efficient, smartly designed, etc., well, if you've ever experienced anything run by the Swiss - railways, toll highways, etc. - you'll know that Toronto still has a long way to go to catch up.

 

[the lemur]

And we've been sitting on our laurels since. Nobody would believe that phrase today. I'd like us to get back to that standard.

It would be a nice thing to aim for, in some respects. I think people at the time were letting themselves be flattered a little too easily - 'Like New York? I like the sound of that! And as if run by the Swiss - that's a good thing, right?' - rather than questioning what that might mean.

 

[pman]

And we've been sitting on our laurels since. Nobody would believe that phrase today. I'd like us to get back to that standard.

That was a popular quote in Toronto, but in reality we were nothing like NYC or Switzerland then. I'm not sure Toronto should aspire to be either. We'll never have the wealth, dynamism or density of New York. We'll also never be a place that cares about quality design, construction and maintenance to a Swiss standard. Let's also face the fact that Switzerland is a much richer country than we are. The best we can hope for with our economy, political organization and municipal civil service is to be slightly less shabby and ugly in a few small areas. For that matter, while I find this city's public realm monumentally depressing, I get the sense that most Torontonians think it's just fine.

 

[the lemur]

That was a popular quote in Toronto, but in reality we were nothing like NYC or Switzerland then. I'm not sure Toronto should aspire to be either. We'll never have the wealth, dynamism or density of New York. We'll also never be a place that cares about quality design, construction and maintenance to a Swiss standard. Let's also face the fact that Switzerland is a much richer country than we are. The best we can hope for with our economy, political organization and municipal civil service is to be slightly less shabby and ugly in a few small areas. For that matter, while I find this city's public realm monumentally depressing, I get the sense that most Torontonians think it's just fine.

As I said, I don't think people realize that the quote can easily be seen as a veiled putdown. And wouldn't a New York-type alpha city that was run by the Swiss basically just be a bigger version of Zurich? Which is no one's idea of vibrant or exciting, nice though it may be.

Running things like the Swiss probably doesn't refer to our design or urban planning - there was a profile of Toronto a few years ago in one of the Swiss papers in which the journalist expressed surprise at the fact we had buildings of different styles and eras plopped next to each other, seemingly at random. (Which I didn't think was necessarily a bad thing?)

 

[Adjei]

That was a popular quote in Toronto, but in reality we were nothing like NYC or Switzerland then. I'm not sure Toronto should aspire to be either. We'll never have the wealth, dynamism or density of New York. We'll also never be a place that cares about quality design, construction and maintenance to a Swiss standard. Let's also face the fact that Switzerland is a much richer country than we are. The best we can hope for with our economy, political organization and municipal civil service is to be slightly less shabby and ugly in a few small areas. For that matter, while I find this city's public realm monumentally depressing, I get the sense that most Torontonians think it's just fine.

I don't think how rich a country rich is that big of a factor. For example there are many countries in western Europe where the public realm of the cities puts ours to shame where Canada is equal or even exceeds them if we look at gdp on a per capita basis. Even here in Canada, I find Montreal for example has better public realm and public spaces than here and Montreal and Quebec are definitely not richer than Toronto and Ontario. What is important is how much this stuff concerns the general public and the politicians who can change things like that. How many times have you seen a politician campaign or improving the look of Toronto and the public realm? It would never happen. Like you said most people here are ok with ow shabby the city looks so expect no changes.

 

[kEiThZ]

For that matter, while I find this city's public realm monumentally depressing, I get the sense that most Torontonians think it's just fine.

Absolutely. But people think it's rude for me to point out that Toronto is kind of ugly at times for a major first world city. And I agree with you, most Torontonians think that's fine. A lot that is insular thinking. I find (at least in my circles anyway), most Torontonians haven't spent any sort of significant time outside Toronto. And even less outside Canada (if they weren't born here). So they think Toronto is "the best" because they haven't seen any better. Or all they've seen of the rest of Canada are far smaller cities that they could never imagine living in.

I'd also add that Toronto getting the "best city in the world" award has probably also added to that laziness, in my most humble opinion. If you're the best, you don't need to work on improving right?

 

[the lemur]

How many times have you seen a politician campaign or improving the look of Toronto and the public realm? It would never happen. Like you said most people here are ok with ow shabby the city looks so expect no changes.

Rob Ford said a few things about tackling graffiti and how awful the drive in to the city is when there's litter up against the fences by the side of the highway, but aside from a few words and a photo op with a power washer, he didn't actually do anything, as usual.

 

[Adjei]

Absolutely. But people think it's rude for me to point out that Toronto is kind of ugly at times for a major first world city. And I agree with you, most Torontonians think that's fine. A lot that is insular thinking. I find (at least in my circles anyway), most Torontonians haven't spent any sort of significant time outside Toronto. And even less outside Canada (if they weren't born here). So they think Toronto is "the best" because they haven't seen any better. Or all they've seen of the rest of Canada are far smaller cities that they could never imagine living in.

I'd also add that Toronto getting the "best city in the world" award has probably also added to that laziness, in my most humble opinion. If you're the best, you don't need to work on improving right?

I think what's needed is if some from the international media were to say something about it, that would draw the attention of people here.