Discriminatory hiring practices

[Admiral Beez]

I don’t usually care about what’s in the National Post as it‘s always desperately seeking outrage.stories. But this bugs me.

MSN

www.msn.com

How can Canadian publicly funded universities have such a formal hiring practice? How is this allowed?

RESEARCH CHAIR IN AGRICULTURAL, FOOD OR NUTRITIONAL SCIENCE
“…the selection will be restricted to members of the following designated groups: women, visible minorities (members of groups that are racially categorized), persons with disabilities, and Indigenous peoples.”

Research Chair in Quantum Computing
“…the selection will be restricted to members of the following designated groups: persons with disabilities, Indigenous Peoples, women and gender minorities (transgender, gender-fluid, nonbinary and Two-Spirit people), and racialized
minorities.”

How does ones gender, ethnicity or gender identity have any relevance in these jobs? A better way to achieve their obvious goals would be a colour blind application process, like the TSO does. Hide the names, gender and ethnicities and allow everyone to apply.

I wonder what the media would report and how the HRC would react if an employer posted that only male, non-BIPOC candidates will be considered. And the hypocrisy bugs me, almost every university president in Canada is a white male, and now that they’ve made it to the top, they put in rules that block anyone who looks like them.

 

[Undead]

Yeah, much of the fashionable diversity stuff is highly toxic and shadowboxes against imaginary or extremely exaggerated issues.

I cringe every time there's a diversity disclosure form on job applications (almost every single one) and always refuse to fill them out. You can't claim to be an "equal opportunity employer" and in the same breath ask applicants' race and sex. It's clown world.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Yeah, much of the fashionable diversity stuff is highly toxic and shadowboxes against imaginary or extremely exaggerated issues.

I cringe every time there's a diversity disclosure form on job applications (almost every single one) and always refuse to fill them out. You can't claim to be an "equal opportunity employer" and in the same breath ask applicants' race and sex. It's clown world.

There are many days I am grateful for my age, that at 51 I am closer to the end of my career than starting out. I don't think I could navigate the world today's young job candidates must work through.

 

[Undead]

There are many days I am grateful for my age, that at 51 I am closer to the end of my career than starting out. I don't think I could navigate the world today's young job candidates must work through.

Yeah it can be tough. First, there's too much "demand" for the basic office jobs because we're churning out too many liberal arts/social sciences/humanities grads and they all compete for this class of work.

Then you have to hope you get past the resume review computer programs.

Then you have an initial phone call assessment with the recruiter and hope you're "good enough" for them to present you to the hiring manager.

Then the hiring manager does a first round interview with you.

Then a second round.

Then often a third round with other team members and some senior manager/VP person.

Then you don't get selected.

And keep in mind that it's a volume/numbers game to land one of these jobs.

Sure, an engineer will apply to 2-3 jobs and have a difficult application/assessment process.

But candidates applying for the "soft" jobs must spam applications. For example, it takes me 4-8 weeks, 500-1,000 applications and 30-50 interviews to land a job in my area. It's not intellectually challenging, but quite plodding and exhausting drudgery nevertheless.

The real kicker is that many/most of these jobs can be done perfectly well by a responsible high school student or any liberal arts grad. But companies make it seem like they're hiring the next Einstein/Newton/Hawking rolled into one who will be curing cancer every day.

And so you're forced to dance like a monkey, contorting yourself every which way just to land a basic job so you can pay your bills. It's degrading.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Yeah it can be tough. First, there's too much "demand" for the basic office jobs because we're churning out too many liberal arts/social sciences/humanities grads and they all compete for this class of work.

I'm afraid that's the degrees my young adult kids will graduate with. I've told them both to pursue something with an accreditation so that they can narrow the field. I'll likely be using all my powers of networking to help find them jobs.

The real kicker is that many/most of these jobs can be done perfectly well by a responsible high school student or any liberal arts grad. But companies make it seem like they're hiring the next Einstein/Newton/Hawking rolled into one who will be curing cancer every day.

That was my experience. All of my jobs have been in international trade, and I could have done them all with high school and a brief community college course in logistics and international finance. But in 1997 when at aged 26 I got my big break and landed a job as export sales manager for a confectionery company they told me outright that they'd have never hired me without a degree, any degree. I got to travel the world selling candy, so it worked out, but I can't help but look at my dad who with only high school had a great while collar job.

 

[gabe]

Yeah it can be tough. First, there's too much "demand" for the basic office jobs because we're churning out too many liberal arts/social sciences/humanities grads and they all compete for this class of work.

Yep, A lot of people are piling up debt to earn degrees with no viable job markets, while high-paying trade jobs are siting empty.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Yep, A lot of people are piling up debt to earn degrees with no viable job markets, while high-paying trade jobs are siting empty.

I used to direct marketing at a construction products company. I'd go to job sites, usually condos to interview the workers on their needs and workarounds so we could improve our tools, such as drywall track fasteners, etc. And yes, the guys laying drywall track in condos are easily making over six figures, but its hard work, and by the time you're in your 40s your knees and back are shot. Many (not all) trades are hard physical work, and more and more of those jobs have become gig work, with every worker a sole proprietor, with less union protection. You get paid per job. But when I think about it, what are the trades, is that someone who works with their hands? Is the IT guy in my office who's repairing desktops and installing software a tradesperson?

My two kids are both pursuing degrees (psychology and geography) that if they stopped at their BA level would be leaning towards useless. So I've told them, if they're pursuing those they need to reach for the top of their professions and achieve the credentials that open the most doors to them and close the most doors to any that don't have them, cost is no object, just put in the work. They can't change their race to meet these new BIPOC-Alphabet only hiring practices, so they must do their very best around them. So, Kid #1 knows it's a PhD or MD in Psych or whatever accreditation allows the opening of their own practice, write scripts, etc. Kid #2 in geography I've recommended they network like crazy, and lean towards the environmental or ecological, but it's early days so we'll see if they change their major - they definitely don't want to sit at a desk staring at a screen all day, so I can see Kid #2 more in the field, closer to a tradesperson than a cubical drone.

 

[lenaitch]

I used to direct marketing at a construction products company. I'd go to job sites, usually condos to interview the workers on their needs and workarounds so we could improve our tools, such as drywall track fasteners, etc. And yes, the guys laying drywall track in condos are easily making over six figures, but its hard work, and by the time you're in your 40s your knees and back are shot. The trades are hard physical work, and more and more of those jobs have become gig work, with every worker a sole proprietor, with less union protection. But when I think about it, what are the trades, is that someone who works with their hands? Is the IT guy in my office who's repairing desktops and installing software a tradesperson?

Interesting point. I always figured a 'tradesperson' as, generally, someone who does skilled physical work and/or, more specifically, a professional in a recognized trade, whether or not it has a guild or considered 'red seal'; but it can be fairly none specific in general conversation and, as you suggest, might be a bit of an evolving target.

Depending on the trade or training, many are project specific and may entail long periods on the road or away from home, which may not be attractive to many. Even in the more in-demand trades around Toronto, until you get your name established or gain union seniority, you may still be chasing jobs for a number of years.

You are right about the income. The two of my peers who 'made it' first were both electricians. You also right about the physical toll. Which body part usually depends on the trade. Maybe with IT they will determine it is eyesight.

One thing about IT is that many aspects can often be done remotely - very remotely - and seems to be always subject to off-shoring. At least with the more traditional trades, either you go to the job or it comes to you.

 

[Admiral Beez]

One thing about IT is that many aspects can often be done remotely - very remotely - and seems to be always subject to off-shoring.

Yep, once my employer discovered www.upwork.com we moved pretty much all IT and digital marketing to cheaper places, mainly Ukraine. Interestingly, our contacts relocated due to the invasion and are still working. As for other remote work, indeed, I haven't been to my office since March 2020.

 

[AlbertC]

On the topic of liberal art degree grads, it really depends on how well the student networks or expands on their opportunities afterwards. Such as furthering their education into something more specified or streamlined.

In my previous company, I used to work with a guy who graduated Ryerson in poli-sci, but got into HR afterwards and now works in the CRA. While I have another friend who graduated from U of T years ago in the humanities, and then chose to do a masters in museology (museum studies) at the University of Washington in Seattle. I was lucky to use that as chance to visit several cities along the Pacific Northwest when she was there. She eventually came back and found work in a museum here but eventually left to work in the airline industry. Unfortunately the pandemic wasn't so friendly for her there, but that's a different story.

I also met a different girl once who graduated U of T in the arts and got a job right after in the realm of client support, and later got additional certification and now works in a more structured business role. It really depends on how much of a go-getter someone is, and as always connections always helps.

Working in fields different from what someone graduated in is also becoming more commonplace. A couple years before the pandemic, we had an unofficial 10 years post-high school graduation reunion gathering and there was a guy who graduated in social work but is now working in the banking industry. For myself, I graduated in accounting and now work in tech. While a couple guys I work with were originally graduates in kinesiology, and one of them has now moved onto working at Google after gaining additional skills.

 

[Undead]

Yes, that's very true. I was able to get work in my field right after graduating because I took the time and effort to do a few co-ops and internships in my field while I was in school. Experience matters way more than the degree.

The advice I'd give to students is to get the quickest, simplest and cheapest degree you need for your line of work. Spend the extra time instead on getting work experience in your field. The credentialism arms race is a complete waste of time and does nothing to help most people land a job.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The credentialism arms race is a complete waste of time and does nothing to help most people land a job.

True, but there’s more to life than landing a job. I’ve told my kids to find something they‘re passionate about and to go as far as they can with it, both career/networking wise and knowledge/education. I graduated in poly sci in 1995, then a post diploma at GBC in international biz, with coop that landing me my first job in freight forwarding in 1996, then I moved into food exports in 1997, got married in 1998 and bought a house, had first kid in 2003, all while racing through the career rat race, working for eight different firms and seeing much of the world from a trade show booth. I’m happy now, my work is good fun, pays the bills and wfh these past two years has been great. But if I could do it all over again, I would have gone to get my masters in international relations or maybe risk management at the LSE, and spent time reconnecting with my British roots and family. Heck, I might have joined the Royal Navy. I’ve never had trouble finding work, but finding time and knowledge outside of my career field is harder. That’s what I’m giving my kids, the time, patience and support they need to do whatever they want - you want a PhD in Geography, go for it - I’ll help financially as much as I can, and my parental encouragement is limitless.. I wish my father had done the same, instead of demanding I get a job and get out as soon as I’d graduated from GBC.

Now that I’m 51 and perhaps nine years from retirement I’m looking again at education, and especially education that has absolutely nothing to do with my career. For starters, I’ve begun piano lessons, starting with zero musical experience. Next I’m looking at doing a masters in history, specially https://www.port.ac.uk/study/courses/ma-naval-history, because, why not? I’m reaching that point in my life when I just don’t GAF about career advancement.

 

[afransen]

I have to say I am deeply unimpressed with MBAs. The top tier ones are probably good for networking with other high flyers, but many of the people I come across in interviews with MBAs fail to impress. That said, I think some business education in undergrad can be useful.

 

[Undead]

True, but there’s more to life than landing a job

Oh, absolutely, that's why I do the bare minimum at mine to pay the bills, lol. Family, friends and free time are infinitely more important than the infantile BS of most corporate jobs.

If you look at studies and interviews of old people, their regrets are all about not loving their family enough, not appreciating themselves more, not trying more things in life. On your death bed, you won't give a f--- about the spreadsheets and marketing plans you did at your job. The vast majority of jobs really are a waste of our precious life.

 

[lenaitch]

True, but there’s more to life than landing a job. I’ve told my kids to find something they‘re passionate about and to go as far as they can with it, both career/networking wise and knowledge/education. I graduated in poly sci in 1995, then a post diploma at GBC in international biz, with coop that landing me my first job in freight forwarding in 1996, then I moved into food exports in 1997, got married in 1998 and bought a house, had first kid in 2003, all while racing through the career rat race, working for eight different firms and seeing much of the world from a trade show booth. I’m happy now, my work is good fun, pays the bills and wfh these past two years has been great. But if I could do it all over again, I would have gone to get my masters in international relations or maybe risk management at the LSE, and spent time reconnecting with my British roots and family. Heck, I might have joined the Royal Navy. I’ve never had trouble finding work, but finding time and knowledge outside of my career field is harder. That’s what I’m giving my kids, the time, patience and support they need to do whatever they want - you want a PhD in Geography, go for it - I’ll help financially as much as I can, and my parental encouragement is limitless.. I wish my father had done the same, instead of demanding I get a job and get out as soon as I’d graduated from GBC.

Now that I’m 51 and perhaps nine years from retirement I’m looking again at education, and especially education that has absolutely nothing to do with my career. For starters, I’ve begun piano lessons, starting with zero musical experience. Next I’m looking at doing a masters in history, specially https://www.port.ac.uk/study/courses/ma-naval-history, because, why not? I’m reaching that point in my life when I just don’t GAF about career advancement.

Good for you. I wish I had the continuous learning gene. A buddy's father, who had a Doctorate, got his Masters in Theology after retirement 'just cuz'.

Oh, absolutely, that's why I do the bare minimum at mine to pay the bills, lol. Family, friends and free time are infinitely more important than the infantile BS of most corporate jobs. If you look at studies and interviews of old people, their regrets are all about not loving their family enough, not appreciating themselves more, not trying more things in life. On your death bed, you won't give a f--- about the spreadsheets and marketing plans you did at your job. The vast majority of jobs really are a waste of our precious life.

So long as "the bills" includes contingency and retirement savings. Unless you plan on working until the day before you drop, CPP ain't going to cut it.