Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[kEiThZ]

How was the SRT marketed/perceived in 1985 before it opened? Were people excited about a new form of transit in Toronto in the suburbs (Scarborough, Etobicoke) or were people complaining it wasn't "what we deserve" as it's "not good enough"?

I moved to Scarborough in 1991. And all I've ever known were people complaining about the SRT and the transfer at Kennedy since I was a kid.

The idea of the SRT would have been more sustainable if they had extended the line deep into northern Scarborough. But they never did. And that made the line look as useless as Sheppard subway. Even worse is the fact that virtually all the ridership on that line is centered around 3 stations: Kennedy, Lawrence East and Scarborough Centre. Even the ridership at McCowan is fake since it operates as a glorified kiss n ride for SC.

And now because they didn't extend it for 3 decades, nobody really, really trusts them to do it properly. That's why its innate to push for a subway extension. It's the one thing that seems to get built in Toronto.

 

[Cobra]

I moved to Scarborough in 1991. And all I've ever known were people complaining about the SRT and the transfer at Kennedy since I was a kid.

The idea of the SRT would have been more sustainable if they had extended the line deep into northern Scarborough. But they never did. And that made the line look as useless as Sheppard subway. Even worse is the fact that virtually all the ridership on that line is centered around 3 stations: Kennedy, Lawrence East and Scarborough Centre. Even the ridership at McCowan is fake since it operates as a glorified kiss n ride for SC.

And now because they didn't extend it for 3 decades, nobody really, really trusts them to do it properly. That's why its innate to push for a subway extension. It's the one thing that seems to get built in Toronto.

Exactly but you have people on this forum who says : "How dare Scarborough residents demands a subway? They should just trust City Hall because that turned out well 30 years ago..."

 

[amnesiajune]

How was the SRT marketed/perceived in 1985 before it opened?

People protested because it wasn't wheelchair-accessible.

Anyways, at the time it was considered a demonstration for a larger system. There were plans to build a system with the same technology that would cross the entire city, but that was shelved (largely due to opposition from Metro Toronto) a few months after the SRT opened.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I am so happy we didn't build the Relief Line with this technology. It would've provided woefully inadequate capacity.

 

[crs1026]

The bloom fell off the rose after a period of operation. There were lots of glitches - not surprising considering that the technology was so new. Lots of things had to be corrected or rebuilt. Those things might not happen on a new line today, but the reputation for unreliability has been earned.

And, the Province ran out of money, which doomed what might have been a promising regional system.

It says something that the Premier of the day didn't feel like turning up for the opening ceremony. That wouldn't happen today - says a lot about how transit has risen in the political consciousness.

- Paul

 

[rbt]

I am so happy we didn't build the Relief Line with this technology. It would've provided woefully inadequate capacity.

Yeah, it would be a shame to build 2 or 3 additional mid-capacity lines through downtown.

I don't like most elevated lines for aesthetic reasons but single super-high capacity lines requiring 500 buses to feed them haven't been a good strategy for a comfortable transit trip in this city. At very least multiple mid-capacity lines gives you a bit of a fallback plan when one fails.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The connection from Kipling to the Airport may have been useful. Agreed on the DRL though.

 

[44 North]

Toronto could get replacement SkyTrain cars {yes I know SkyTrain is a Vancouver name but makes for easy differentiation between train technology} but lets say they can't just for the sake of argument. Well with the $2.7 billion they would be saving by simply fixing the bend instead of a subway they could buy enough SkyTrain too last them until the third millennium.

If SkyTrain will not be used due to political reasons then they should go ahead with the subway via the SRT corridor as as cheap as they can possibly get to STC. Anything would be better than a $2.5 billon LRT.

I get the basis of your argument, but it's flawed. You seem to think there's only one vehicle in the world that can use Line 3's infrastructure (BBD's Innovia), and if we don't then our only options are a) rebuild for LFLRVs or b) Line 2 extension. Not unreasonable conclusion since that's what we've effectively been told. But it's no doubt wrong.

I believe there are other vehicles that can use Line 3's upgraded infrastructure; vehicles that can be made similar to Innovia but with characteristics of what's running on Lines 1, 2, 4. Alstom Metropolis, Siemens Inspiro, a slimmed down and modified Movia. They can be designed and made to order. If we want a narrow body and more articulation, manufacturers can probably do that. No need for Innovia or LIM.

People protested because it wasn't wheelchair-accessible.

A moot point tho, since the alternative to the SRT was a line using coupled CLRVs (i.e high floor vehicles on a low platform). Can't get a wheelchair on that.

I am so happy we didn't build the Relief Line with this technology. It would've provided woefully inadequate capacity.

Doubt it ever would've been. The projections were high even in the 80s, and the go-to vehicles for ridership above 20kpphpd was the unbuilt ALRT or conventional subway. And since ALRT was never built it would've logically been conventional subway.

 

[amnesiajune]

A moot point tho, since the alternative to the SRT was a line using coupled CLRVs (i.e high floor vehicles on a low platform). Can't get a wheelchair on that.

You could get a wheelchair on the SRT trains if they'd built elevators at the stations. The Expo Line in Vancouver opened later that same year using the same technology, and it was fully wheelchair-accessible.

 

[44 North]

You could get a wheelchair on the SRT trains if they'd built elevators at the stations. The Expo Line in Vancouver opened later that same year using the same technology, and it was fully wheelchair-accessible.

Exactly. So the wheelchair point has nothing do with ICTS technology or the train, rather the decision not to build elevators at stations.

 

[ssiguy2]

I am so happy we didn't build the Relief Line with this technology. It would've provided woefully inadequate capacity.

That's a mute point as they never built t with horse & buggy either.

SkyTrain has as much capacity as a subway. Build a 120 meter station and the capacity is only slightly less than subway. Remember the cars are smaller but SkyTrain has faster de/acceleration than subways. Monorail is subway capacity as well. Sao Paulo's new monorail line has capacity of 49,000 pphpd and only with 100 meter stations due to being standard subway width and the trains running an incredible every 45 seconds. Only LRT has significantly lower capacity due to thinner vehicles with SkyTrain de/acceleration. SkyTrain has TWICE the capacity than the Canada Line standard Metro due to the station sizes as CL can only be expanded to 50 meter stations while all ST can be expanded to 105.

 

[OneCity]

In addition to the technical failures the RT also failed because of a poor route design and that ever important transfer one stop before Scarborough's most important growth area. These are very important to residents overall. Even more so when we had a poorly integrated and completely off the radar unfunded LRT lines elsewhere in the large borough.

Don't get me wrong Transit City had some good bits and meant well in some respects. But what is left of it is all that should be left. Time to move forward.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Doubt it ever would've been. The projections were high even in the 80s, and the go-to vehicles for ridership above 20kpphpd was the unbuilt ALRT or conventional subway. And since ALRT was never built it would've logically been conventional subway.

I know somewhere there are some black and white Government of Ontario renders of an ICTS Downtown Relief Line connecting to Union Station (pretty sure you've posted them before). Which is odd because, as you mentioned, even the the 80s they knew that ridership demand on the Relief Line would be very high. Far higher than a system explicitly designed for "intermediate capacity rapid transit" could handle.

I know in the 1960s, the TTC wanted to build an underground streetcar-based Relief Line that could be easily upgradable to run standard subway cars. I wonder if the ICTS Relief Line was planned to be similarly upgradable.

 

[robmausser]

I think everyone needs to research the LIM technology more. LIM doesn't power the cars as mentioned thats what the third rail is for. LIM also doesn't "steer" the train, thats what the running rails are for. LIM simply is used as a "grip" so to speak where the Linear Induction Motors on the bottom of the cars use the rail to pull the train alone on.

Whether or not the system uses a LIM rail doesn't matter this is an incredibly useless debate, if we don't have LIM thats okay. If we have LIM that's also not a bad thing, LI Motors are very reliable and the technology has completely proven itself.

Not to be pedantic, but its actually a third and fourth rail with LIM.

The LIM slightly raises the wheels off the rail at first acceleration, and this means that the circuit needs to be completed between a 3rd and 4th rail with positive and negative charge, you can't have a ground through the wheels when they lift off the rail!

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Not to be pedantic, but its actually a third and fourth rail with LIM.

The LIM slightly raises the wheels off the rail at first acceleration, and this means that the circuit needs to be completed between a 3rd and 4th rail with positive and negative charge, you can't have a ground through the wheels when they lift off the rail!

Is this to reduce friction?

Where is the fourth rail? Under the centre track?