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Bungalow folks cling to lake lots - a better tax plan needed

Admiral Beez

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http://www.thestar.com/article/474349

I hate seeing these seniors who bought their houses decades ago being forced out by high property taxes. It just doesn't seem fair to keep raising their taxes dramatically every year when they're not increasing their demand of city services.

Property taxes should be levied solely on the amount of municipal services used by that property, along with a percentage for general city upkeep of parks, police, sewers, etc.

Where the city should gain its funds on property should be in the transaction or sale of property. Now, if Grandma sells her bungalow in 2008 for $800,000 which she bought for $20,000 in 1947, she gets to pocket 100% of that $800,000 tax free (granted, the buyer has to pay city fees, but not the seller). This should change, so that those that benefit from the rocket increases in property values in some areas of the city pay more tax than someone who has property in a poor area. Thus, when Grandma sells her $800,000 house, she should pay MST (Miller Sales Tax) of 10% of the difference between what she paid in 1947 (indexed to today's inflation) and what she sold it for in 2008, to the city.

Essentially I'm advocating capital gains taxes on personal property transactions. This seems to be the only fair way to ensure that those who benefit from massive property value increases pay something to the city, while ensuring that those who do not themselves benefit from these value increases because either they have no plans to sell their home (such as the people in this article), or that live in poorer areas, are paying property taxes relative to the city services they use.

My wife frequently worries that one day the city will force us out of our Cabbagetown semi through punishing property taxes. Sure, we can afford them now, as we're middle class working people, and the total tax cost is about $4,000 a year, much less than my brother's house in Mississauga, for example. However, when I'm 65 years old, retired, living off my smallish company pension and shaky RSPs and my property taxes are $10,000 a year, how do I afford that? My demand on city services will be less in 30 years when my kids are gone, but I'll be expected to pay massive taxes based solely on the hypothetical resale of my home. That's why I say tax me if I sell it, but otherwise leave my taxes at the level simply to cover the services I use.
 
It has always struck me as odd and unfair the way property taxes are levied in this city, not to mention arbitrary - what recourse do you have when your assessment skyrockets?
The entire system needs to be rethought, especially for larger urban centers like Toronto. There are definitely special needs here and those burdens should not fall on the hapless property owners.
 
she should pay MST (Miller Sales Tax) of 10% of the difference between what she paid in 1947 (indexed to today's inflation) and what she sold it for in 2008, to the city.

...and if she sells at a loss, will the city pay her the difference?

It has always struck me as odd and unfair the way property taxes are levied in this city, not to mention arbitrary - what recourse do you have when your assessment skyrockets?

This is one of the reasons MPACC was being investigated last year...what ever happened to the results of that?
 
...and if she sells at a loss, will the city pay her the difference?
No, it's the same as capital gain taxes. Perhaps she could claim something on her federal tax return under asset depreciation, but that would have nothing to do with the city.

The city should be taxing us for the services we use, plus a percentage for general city-wide services. What does property value got to do with municipal services?

The guy living in Rosedale in a $2 million dollar home should be paying the same property taxes as me in my $500,000 Cabbagetown semi, since we're both using about the same level of city services. Where the Rosedale guy pays more is when he sells his $2 million house. If he never sells it, then when he dies, his estate gets charged the same tax as if it was sold. The city will still make sure that the rich pay more tax.
 
http://www.thestar.com/article/474349Property taxes should be levied solely on the amount of municipal services used by that property, along with a percentage for general city upkeep of parks, police, sewers, etc.

Be careful what you wish for. In Toronto municipal spending per household averages $8,422. Remove the twenty percent of the assessment base that is not residential and it still leaves one with an average of $6,738 er household. It should also be noted that non residential segment also consumes much less in municipal services.

I would like to see a move towards such a system, this way the voting public would be more responsible when encouraging public spending. Due diligence seems to go out the window when shopping at a ~75% discount. What should be allowed is that everyone (not just seniors) can opt to defer a portion of property taxes which would then be placed as a lien on the said property.
 
What should be allowed is that everyone (not just seniors) can opt to defer a portion of property taxes which would then be placed as a lien on the said property.
I imagine quite a few do this in a similar manner today via reverse mortgages, where they use the hypothetical value of their homes to pay their taxes.
 
Don't start crying on us now. You asked a specific question twice, I did some checking and showed you where to get the info you asked for. That's called a helping hand.


Nobody is crying....just what exactly is your problem? Are you this rude in person?

I asked the question to make you think...obviously it went way over your head.

You should try to be a more pleasant person, maybe you wouldn't have so many enemies here.
 
Digi, I haven't said anything rude, calm down those sensitivities. Your question did exactly what you intended, and made me think. Precisely, it made me think of where I can help you find the info you asked for. Again that's a helping hand. Your flippant reply was not in kind though.

Surely if you went to even your very best friend and asked a question twice in the same discussion, and then your friend said "You've asked this twice now. Why not look it up?" and then did the research and showed you where to look for your answer, I would have thought your reply would be "thanks, that's great...I'll look there and let you know what I find..." To which your friend would have replied "you're welcome, let me know if you need more info for your search..." Discussions here are no different.
 
The guy living in Rosedale in a $2 million dollar home should be paying the same property taxes as me in my $500,000 Cabbagetown semi, since we're both using about the same level of city services.

Are u so sure the widower who bought the property in the early 50's uses the same level of services as u and ur family?
 
Are u so sure the widower who bought the property in the early 50's uses the same level of services as u and ur family?
I suppose we'd have to have some formula for averaging it out. Those with kids likely use more municipal services such as schools (via Provincial funding formulas), parks, pools, etc. while your windower probably uses few services at all, though may use Wheel-Trans or other senior services. There will also be services that neither of us use. For example, I imagine a large percentage of Toronto's citizens rarely if ever use the regular TTC, though we would all need to pay for it, and it benefits drivers, as it clears the roads.

If Toronto's real estate values ever dropped significantly, the property tax income at City Hall would also drop. Under my system, each household would pay based on a set formula that was independent of property values.
 
The underlying assumption however is that the intent of taxation is fairness. I don't believe this assumption is accurate. Tax is likely levied on property primarily because property is a stationary interest and hence more likely to be secure. The next most likely reason property is taxed is that property was once associated with representation. No property, no representation and no representation without taxation. This of course is no longer the case.
 

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