Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)

[zang]

Something like this:

View attachment 700766

At ~4.4 km, you are probably looking at about $1 billion to tunnel it as per latest cost comparables and $2-3 billion for fitout and a mined terminal station at Union. If you are willing to cut travel speeds you could probably reduce the tunnel length to something closer to 3km.

Expensive, but it would give ALTO completely separate (i.e. reliable) operations in and out of Toronto and would let trains get from Union to the edge of the City, assuming an average speed of 150km/h between Union and Markham, in about 11 minutes. Doing the Union-Kennedy-Agincourt route is probably looking at more like 21-22 minutes.

Why not just exit a tunnel on the approach to Union? A train's going to need to slow down anyway, it doesn't seem like you're going to gain a lot of speed by keeping it completely underground at the station.

 

[Urban Sky]

Why not just exit a tunnel on the approach to Union? A train's going to need to slow down anyway, it doesn't seem like you're going to gain a lot of speed by keeping it completely underground at the station.

The underground station would unfortunately be the most expensive, disruptive and complex element of the tunnel he sketched…

 

[crs1026]

1968 timetable speed limit data applicable to RDC equipment:

CP Agincourt to Leaside (5.3 miles) - 60 mph
30 mph turnout at Leaside, passenger stop at Leaside station
Leaside to Don (3.5 miles) - 50 mph on curves, 75 mph otherwise
Don to Union - (2.0 miles) - 30 mph, 15 mph over turnouts at Cherry and Scott St interlockings

Scheduled timing Union to CP Kennedy (Jct with Havelock Sub) - 16 minutes eastbound, 16-24 mins westbound

Seems to me that spending upwards of a couple billion dollars to bore a tunnel to improve on that performance is pretty wishful thinking. Raise the Kennedy-Leaside speed to 95mph on a dedicated new track, replace the Leaside turnout with a 50 mph flyunder, and that's all that would be needed.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

Instead of a tunnel, is there any reason that from around Bloor that it becomes elevated? It then stays elevated right to the station. That could mean it is above the existing Union tracks and not bound to the mess that currently exists. Would it be cheaper? Would it solve many of the issues that exist in the area? Basically, as a rider, you would notice it slow down for the corner, and the stop,. No waiting for a spot. No waiting for other trains to clear. A higher speed the whole way in and out.

 

[CapitalSeven]

You'd need to build a giant structure over Corktown Common. Not going to happen I think. I'm not sure how many minutes a 3 km deep tunnel buys. Not enough to justify the cost I think. Besides, arriving in a city and seeing the central core is kind of a nice experience.

 

[micheal_can]

You'd need to build a giant structure over Corktown Common. Not going to happen I think. I'm not sure how many minutes a 3 km deep tunnel buys. Not enough to justify the cost I think. Besides, arriving in a city and seeing the central core is kind of a nice experience.

Because of how close that corner is, that corner can be tighter. Hence the idea of slowing only for the corner and keep slowing down as they enter Union Station. That corner is only 2.5km from the station. If we assume a 45 mph corner, in those 2.5km,you are going to be slowing down to 0 mph, so it will be a gradual slow down, likely within the range they want to slow down to still be comfortable for the passengers.

 

[guavadelic]

Kennedy undoubtedly is the better location for transit connections. I'm not sure I would plan a stop at Eglinton, however...., perhaps with Lines 2 and 4 both coming to Scarborough, perhaps that stop should be up around Sheppard. Still not as convenient as Kennedy, but the catchment from that location is not insignifigant,

Sheppard and Brimley could be a good location for a secondary stop. Station could be directly connected to a new Line 4 station at Brimley and its close proximity to the 401 would provide convenient access for folks driving in from Pickering, Ajax, Whitby etc.
For a suburban station, its good mix of strong multimodal transit connectivity and "park-and-ride".

 

[micheal_can]

Sheppard and Brimley could be a good location for a secondary stop. Station could be directly connected to a new Line 4 station at Brimley and its close proximity to the 401 would provide convenient access for folks driving in from Pickering, Ajax, Whitby etc.
For a suburban station, its good mix of strong multimodal transit connectivity and "park-and-ride".

ALTO is not a commuter system.

 

[robmausser]

I'm doubtful of Kennedy if only because of space limitations on the corridor. I doubt Metrolinx is going to want Alto intermixing with its services on the corridor.

Luckily, there's plenty of space in this corridor, thanks due to the Scarborough Subway.

There is lots more room in this corridor due to the removal of the RT.

Tear up the busway they are building and now you have a ton of space for extra tracks for Alto. The busway will lose its importance once the Scarb Subway goes online, which will be around the time Alto starts construction if we are being honest.

You will have to share track on a small segment from Agincourt to Ellesmere, and again south of Kennedy, but luckily after a short stint after Kennedy you will be on the Lakeshore quad track line.

Not perfect, but that section of the old RT ROW could put double tracking and act as a good quad tracked area for siding and signalling the Alto and commuter trains to play nice together.

Also, another solution is the Taco Bell method

Have the Don Valley route for outbound Alto trains and the Stouffville for inbound.

 

[nfitz]

The underground station would unfortunately be the most expensive, disruptive and complex element of the tunnel he sketched…

And yet Metrolinx was still considering it after the foundation work for the city's Union Station renovations were complete. Perhaps they are still considering it.

Perhaps not a day 1 item. This doesn't have to be perfect day 1. Look at HS1; initially it left the high speed tracks and ran over low(er) speed tracks into Waterloo. Later they added a 40-km section into London, with a lot of tunnels, to cut travel time (and move the terminus to St. Pancras).

The Paris approach into Gare du Nord is still on slower tracks; I wouldn't be surprised if that's upgraded by the end of the century. And perhaps even extended. Can you imagine an underground central Paris station where all the current high speed trains terminating at Gare de l'Est, Gare du Nord, Gare de Lyon, Gare Montparnasse (and wherever the Paris-Normandy service and Paris-Orléans-Clermont services ends up)?

 

[micheal_can]

Luckily, there's plenty of space in this corridor, thanks due to the Scarborough Subway.

There is lots more room in this corridor due to the removal of the RT.

Tear up the busway they are building and now you have a ton of space for extra tracks for Alto. The busway will lose its importance once the Scarb Subway goes online, which will be around the time Alto starts construction if we are being honest.

You will have to share track on a small segment from Agincourt to Ellesmere, and again south of Kennedy, but luckily after a short stint after Kennedy you will be on the Lakeshore quad track line.

Not perfect, but that section of the old RT ROW could put double tracking and act as a good quad tracked area for siding and signalling the Alto and commuter trains to play nice together.

Also, another solution is the Taco Bell method

View attachment 700996

Have the Don Valley route for outbound Alto trains and the Stouffville for inbound.

View attachment 700997

Why don't we do both? Say you live at one station that is only served by one direction, how do you get to it going the opposite way? Is that way really a good answer?