A controversial thread about handicapped people

[StIdes]

Now before I ask the question to everyone here that I'm going to ask I want you all to know that I have nothing against physically impaired people at all. I think they deserve rights as much as anyone else. That being said though, I have a problem with the way TTC has changed to help these people.

I think the TTC spends way to much money to cater to handicap. Honestly all of these low floor buses, proposed low floor streetcars, subways with wheel chair hookups, stations being retrofitted with elevators all cost a lot of money. Do the TTC see returns for this? From my observations I say no.

I have been riding the TTC for almost 30 years. To this day I have not ONCE seen someone use one of those wheel chair lockups on the subway. I have not even once seen someone with a wheel-chair get on a bus. Sure the low floor is nice for old people as they dont have to walk up the stairs. But they seem to do fine on the streetcars, and they were certainly doing it before the low floor buses came out. The only people I have ever seen using the elevators at stations are usually fat lazy looking people, not handicapped.

Look at how many more people those old fish bowl buses could fit on them. I dont have the exact numbers but im sure the use of low floor buses cuts a good amount of seats out of the bus. Why lose all these seats when handicap people NEVER ride?? The handicap have wheel trans. So why does every bus have to be a handicapped low floor bus (sorry bad pun)? Is losing 10 seats per bus because a handicap person might get on that bus 3 times in its service life worth it?

I love all people equally I'm just looking at this from a totally logical point of view. If I actually saw handicap people EVER use the TTC then I wouldnt be writing this. From my observations all this catering to handicapped people just seems like a big waste of money that they should be spending on expanding service and comfort levels for people who actually use the TTC. P.S. I miss fishbowls obviously

 

[kEiThZ]

Maybe in Toronto... but I have seen tons of wheelchair equipped riders board buses in Ottawa. I am sure Toronto will catch-up in time.

 

[drum118]

Now before I ask the question to everyone here that I'm going to ask I want you all to know that I have nothing against physically impaired people at all. I think they deserve rights as much as anyone else. That being said though, I have a problem with the way TTC has changed to help these people.

I think the TTC spends way to much money to cater to handicap. Honestly all of these low floor buses, proposed low floor streetcars, subways with wheel chair hookups, stations being retrofitted with elevators all cost a lot of money. Do the TTC see returns for this? From my observations I say no.

I have been riding the TTC for almost 30 years. To this day I have not ONCE seen someone use one of those wheel chair lockups on the subway. I have not even once seen someone with a wheel-chair get on a bus. Sure the low floor is nice for old people as they dont have to walk up the stairs. But they seem to do fine on the streetcars, and they were certainly doing it before the low floor buses came out. The only people I have ever seen using the elevators at stations are usually fat lazy looking people, not handicapped.

Look at how many more people those old fish bowl buses could fit on them. I dont have the exact numbers but im sure the use of low floor buses cuts a good amount of seats out of the bus. Why lose all these seats when handicap people NEVER ride?? The handicap have wheel trans. So why does every bus have to be a handicapped low floor bus (sorry bad pun)? Is losing 10 seats per bus because a handicap person might get on that bus 3 times in its service life worth it?

I love all people equally I'm just looking at this from a totally logical point of view. If I actually saw handicap people EVER use the TTC then I wouldnt be writing this. From my observations all this catering to handicapped people just seems like a big waste of money that they should be spending on expanding service and comfort levels for people who actually use the TTC. P.S. I miss fishbowls obviously

Wait until you have to use a walker, cane, scooter or unable to walk, you will change you tune very fast.

""EVERYONE IS EQUAL"" and have the same rights to use transit.

There are and will be people that need to use Wheel Tran.

You do the math as to what it will cost if TTC or any system had to run as much service for Wheel Tran as regular service. Why should they have to pay $40-$80 for each trip well you pay $2.75???????

It the law and require under our Charter of Right's.

Dead issue and live with it.

 

[StIdes]

Wait until you have to use a walker, cane, scooter or unable to walk, you will change you tune very fast.

""EVERYONE IS EQUAL"" and have the same rights to use transit.

There are and will be people that need to use Wheel Tran.

You do the math as to what it will cost if TTC or any system had to run as much service for Wheel Tran as regular service. Why should they have to pay $40-$80 for each trip well you pay $2.75???????

It the law and require under our Charter of Right's.

Dead issue and live with it.

Youre right, I dont know what its like to have to use a mobility device. What I do know though is that I ride the TTC a lot and have honestly never seen someone with a mobility device ever use the TTC in all my years riding.

Wheel Trans should be $2.75, even if they lost money on it (which they would), I still think the extra space on the buses and subways would be more beneficial and offset the wheeltrans operating loss.

 

[APTA-2048]

If you want to see the benefits of easier access and wheelchair access, take a trip to Hamilton. You are pretty much guaranteed to see a wheelchair user taking the bus.

 

[jwill]

Yes, of course people with impaired mobility deserve equal access to transit.

As for returns on investment, you should be looking more closely at the able bodied. Reducing stairs on buses and streetcars speeds everybody up. Not only that, but it greatly reduces the chances of a step related accident which can slow down service. It may not be as sexy as building new subway lines, but eliminating barriers small and large is key to moving people faster through the system.

 

[StIdes]

Yes, of course people with impaired mobility deserve equal access to transit.

As for returns on investment, you should be looking more closely at the able bodied. Reducing stairs on buses and streetcars speeds everybody up. Not only that, but it greatly reduces the chances of a step related accident which can slow down service. It may not be as sexy as building new subway lines, but eliminating barriers small and large is key to moving people faster through the system.

What about the loss of seating? Believe it or not im sure there's a lot of people who dont ride transit because they cant sit down. Less seats also means less seats for people with mobility issues.

 

[APTA-2048]

What about the loss of seating? Believe it or not im sure there's a lot of people who dont ride transit because they cant sit down. Less seats also means less seats for people with mobility issues.

In the TTC's case, they already have less seating to facilitate more standing. A TTC high floor bus has around the same number of seats as a TTC low floor bus.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Now before I ask the question to everyone here that I'm going to ask I want you all to know that I have nothing against physically impaired people at all.

physically impaired? i think that's what you'd call a ghost.

I think they deserve rights as much as anyone else. That being said though, I have a problem with the way TTC has changed to help these people.

I think the TTC spends way to much money to cater to handicap.

to have the same rights as everyone else, it takes a bit more resources for the disabled. not just the TTC, but society in general spends alot of money to "cater to the handicapped". the very nature of being handicapped means that life is harder and more expensive depending on your situation. so if you think society should spend less on us, that means you don't really "think they deserve rights as much as anyone else".


p.s, do you ever hear wheelchair people complain that too much money is being spent on seating for people?

Honestly all of these low floor buses, proposed low floor streetcars, subways with wheel chair hookups, stations being retrofitted with elevators all cost a lot of money. Do the TTC see returns for this? From my observations I say no.

do you mean profit? the TTC is a social service. it's not there to turn a profit. it's there to provide a service to society. IIRC, a 1 way trip on wheeltrans costs about 35-40 dollars to the system.

I have been riding the TTC for almost 30 years. To this day I have not ONCE seen someone use one of those wheel chair lockups on the subway. I have not even once seen someone with a wheel-chair get on a bus. Sure the low floor is nice for old people as they dont have to walk up the stairs. But they seem to do fine on the streetcars, and they were certainly doing it before the low floor buses came out. The only people I have ever seen using the elevators at stations are usually fat lazy looking people, not handicapped.

are you an all knowing god who can monitor the entire system all the time? imagine if you will the percentage of the system you use and the percentage of the time you use it in its total operational hours. i won't speak on behalf of anyone else but i can tell you one of the reasons why i don't use the system on a regular basis: it's incomplete.

Look at how many more people those old fish bowl buses could fit on them. I dont have the exact numbers but im sure the use of low floor buses cuts a good amount of seats out of the bus. Why lose all these seats when handicap people NEVER ride?? The handicap have wheel trans. So why does every bus have to be a handicapped low floor bus (sorry bad pun)? Is losing 10 seats per bus because a handicap person might get on that bus 3 times in its service life worth it?

is low floor or elevators just beneficial to handicapped people? how many people carry a small cart for shopping and how many people push baby strollers? i'm sure there's even more uses an accessible system can cater to.

I love all people equally I'm just looking at this from a totally logical point of view. If I actually saw handicap people EVER use the TTC then I wouldnt be writing this. From my observations all this catering to handicapped people just seems like a big waste of money that they should be spending on expanding service and comfort levels for people who actually use the TTC. P.S. I miss fishbowls obviously

this is a false dichotomy. why does the choice have to be between accessibility or more service? sounds like you're looking at from an illogical point of view.



personally, i think there are some flaws with the accessible system (not talking about wheeltrans) such as the inability to accommodate larger devices such as scooters, limited space (if a wheelchair is on the bus, you have to wait for the next one) and inconsiderate passengers who don't free up the accessible space. imagine having to wait for 5 buses to go by before you can actually get on one because some nice people decided to move.

but even then, it will be better than nothing.


also, being handicapped is something that can happen at anytime. so don't look at it like lots of money is being spent on "other" people. you could very well become those "other" people at any time. accessibility is being installed for everybody, just in case. you may hate making your insurance payments but if your house burns to the ground, you'll be glad you did.

 

[StIdes]

In the TTC's case, they already have less seating to facilitate more standing. A TTC high floor bus has around the same number of seats as a TTC low floor bus.

Actually thats incorrect as I have just researched the numbers. The fish bowl buses had 55 seats and the new low floor buses have 39. Thats 16 less seats or 29% less seats. That's a big number anyway you look at it. Losing 16 seats on everybus to accommodate less then 1% of Torontos population (even less of a percentage who actually use the TTC) just seems asinine.

Prometheus The Supremo ill return my rebuttal to your post when I get back from my walk to the beer store. Got a day off work tomorrow and it closes at 10pm

 

[Paleo]

Now before I ask the question to everyone here that I'm going to ask I want you all to know that I have nothing against physically impaired people at all. I think they deserve rights as much as anyone else. That being said though, I have a problem with the way TTC has changed to help these people.

I think the TTC spends way to much money to cater to handicap. Honestly all of these low floor buses, proposed low floor streetcars, subways with wheel chair hookups, stations being retrofitted with elevators all cost a lot of money. Do the TTC see returns for this? From my observations I say no.

I have been riding the TTC for almost 30 years. To this day I have not ONCE seen someone use one of those wheel chair lockups on the subway. I have not even once seen someone with a wheel-chair get on a bus. Sure the low floor is nice for old people as they dont have to walk up the stairs. But they seem to do fine on the streetcars, and they were certainly doing it before the low floor buses came out. The only people I have ever seen using the elevators at stations are usually fat lazy looking people, not handicapped.

Look at how many more people those old fish bowl buses could fit on them. I dont have the exact numbers but im sure the use of low floor buses cuts a good amount of seats out of the bus. Why lose all these seats when handicap people NEVER ride?? The handicap have wheel trans. So why does every bus have to be a handicapped low floor bus (sorry bad pun)? Is losing 10 seats per bus because a handicap person might get on that bus 3 times in its service life worth it?

I love all people equally I'm just looking at this from a totally logical point of view. If I actually saw handicap people EVER use the TTC then I wouldnt be writing this. From my observations all this catering to handicapped people just seems like a big waste of money that they should be spending on expanding service and comfort levels for people who actually use the TTC. P.S. I miss fishbowls obviously

It seems that controversial has become synonymous with ignorant. It speeds boarding for everyone not just those "handicap" people. Seniors that take 30 seconds to go up three steps, able-bodied parents in their 30s with their monster strollers, people carrying large items with them from a store, list goes on.

 

[APTA-2048]

Actually thats incorrect as I have just researched the numbers. The fish bowl buses had 55 seats and the new low floor buses have 39. Thats 16 less seats or 29% less seats. That's a big number anyway you look at it. Losing 16 seats on everybus to accommodate less then 1% of Torontos population (even less of a percentage who actually use the TTC) just seems asinine.

Prometheus The Supremo ill return my rebuttal to your post when I get back from my walk to the beer store. Got a day off work tomorrow and it closes at 10pm

I think you are confusing the TTC specified capacity with the maximum seating capacity of the GM. The TTC has long specified less seats to create more standing room.

TTC current vehicle seating capacity:

GM high floor: 39
Orion high floor: 36, 37, or 39
Nova high floor: 39
New Flyer low floor: 35
Orion low floor: 36 or 38

I would agree with you if you were refering to crush capacity. Then the low floor bus would have less.

 

[Second_in_pie]

I would've thought that it could work to have high seats on the wheel wells. I was on a low floor bus just the other day and was wondering whether it'd work to have a standing platform over the wheel wells, but it took one pothole for that idea to fly out the window

 

[Observer Walt]

If you want to see the benefits of easier access and wheelchair access, take a trip to Hamilton. You are pretty much guaranteed to see a wheelchair user taking the bus.

As someone who is quite familiar with Hamilton, I think that's true, at least in the lower city (as opposed to the Mountain). Hamilton's socio-economic makeup is a bit different than Toronto.

Low-floor buses and (eventually) streetcars benefit most of us, even if you just talk in terms of faster boarding for everyone. I see a few (not many) wheelchair users on the TTC, and I'm sure there will be more as the inaccessible streetcars are replaced.

Supremo, it's been my experience that if you ask people to move, they will, but you probably do have to ask. However, that assumes there's room at the rear of the bus. If the bus is at full capacity, there's not much that can be done.

 

[androiduk]

This is just the Canadian way of doing things. Include as many people as possible and let them enjoy the fruits of a wealthy nation. Sure it might cost us all a few extra bucks but don't forget, unless your parents were millionaires, your entire childhood and your education were subsidized by other people. Now that your up and running, it's time to chip in and help who you can.