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2004 Provincial Liberal Budget

Re: McGuinty plans cuts to balance Ontario's books SLASH ATT

It's a cash cow because of the high taxes on the booze. If we get rid of it, the government still rakes in the cash and I get to buy beer at the grocery store. Win Win
 
Re: McGuinty plans cuts to balance Ontario's books SLASH ATT

LCBO. Okay, let's see...

If the profit made by the LCBO is simply the taxes they collect ("The current profits come from the markup the government charges which would just become a tax under private ownership"), this would mean that the LCBO is taking no cut for themselves. If the system were to be privatized, this would mean that private sellers would also have to factor in a profit for themselves, bringing up prices. (As I've said before, cost tax=price, cost tax profit=savings!) Also, the LCBO is the single largest buyer of wine and spirits in the world, and, as such, they are able to negotiate large bulk discounts. If privatized, these bulk discounts would be lost.

So, if privatization didn't come with a decrease in taxes, we could see an increase in the price of alcohol. From what I have heard, this is exactly what has happened in other jurisdictions that privatized the system.

As for those $20 jobs, so what? (Although I'm fairly sure that's an exaggeration) Last time I checked, LCBO employees are taxpayers as well. If the LCBO were eliminated, say goodbye to several well paying jobs, that would be transferred to already existing low-paying jobs in supermarkets and convenience stores. As Are Be would say about factory workers... 'You are you so mean? Why do you hate the well-paid worker? Why do you want to close the LCBO and kick them all out on the street!'

Okay, so buying booze has limited hours, but I have never found them unfair. They are often open later than most other shopping. Just plan ahead. It's probably a good thing that you can't go grab a 24 at 2am. And shopping at the LCBO is a pleasant experience, the stores are nice, employees are kind, and lines are usually short (maybe not on Fri at 5:30). I see little to no benefit in privatizing this asset.
 
Re: McGuinty plans cuts to balance Ontario's books SLASH ATT

I am opposed to selling the LCBO. Although the province does receive some benefit in taxes, the bulk of the LCBO's profit is simply the profit of doing the business. Selling off the LCBO means getting a substantial sum of cash now (assuming that they cut a good deal in selling it -- at least a few billion; possibly $10 billion) and losing about a billion dollars in revenue per year for each year following the sale. After ten years, the province would be revenue neutral; after ten, the province will be a billion dollars deeper in the hole.

Also, having seen how liquor sales are handled in other jurisdictions, I am more willing to trust the LCBO's ability to identify and limit the sale of liquor to drunks than I am having this important feature parcelled off to private enterprise. The Hydro experience shows that privatization does not provide the benefits that the Tories claimed it would; we would be fools to follow their model once again.

Although, I have to admit, if they could get $10 billion for the LCBO now, I would consider it.

...James
 
Re: McGuinty plans cuts to balance Ontario's books SLASH ATT

Weren't the Liberals opposed to selling off the LCBO when the Tories were considering it?
 
Re: McGuinty plans cuts to balance Ontario's books SLASH ATT

So, if privatization didn't come with a decrease in taxes, we could see an increase in the price of alcohol. From what I have heard, this is exactly what has happened in other jurisdictions that privatized the system.
Indeed. However, why not keep the LCBO public while also allowing for private stores -- grocery stores and corner stores -- to apply for alchohol vending licenses as well? It would create more choice in the system while still allowing the LCBO to be a cash-cow for the province. Moreover, the LCBO would still have it's volume disounts (although arguably not quite as great) and the licenses for the private store vendors could probably also raise some funds for our supposedly cash-stripped provincial government. Wouldn't this make everyone happy, save the puritans?
 
Re: McGuinty plans cuts to balance Ontario's books SLASH ATT

I'd love to see the Star come out in favour of selling the LCBO! It would be an interesting read....
(I, for one, oppose selling of the LCBO)
 
Re: McGuinty plans cuts to balance Ontario's books SLASH ATT

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Jan. 12, 2004. 01:00 AM
Your province needs you
Is McGuinty's search for new ideas from the public to slash government blatantly cynical or astonishingly naive?

IAN URQUHART

It is hard to know what to make of Premier Dalton McGuinty's search for new ideas to downsize government. Is it blatantly cynical or astonishingly naive?

Over the next three months leading up to the spring budget, McGuinty plans to consult the public and rank-and-file civil servants for new ideas to solve the Liberal government's inherited fiscal problem: a structural deficit of about $4 billion.

The consultation process with the civil servants began just before Christmas with a memo to all 63,000 of them from cabinet secretary Tony Dean urging them "to provide ideas on ways to make further improvements in the delivery of government programs and services to the public and in a financially responsible and sustainable manner."

The civil servants were told that any and all ideas were welcome, including those that had previously been shot down by their own managers.

As for consultation of the general public, that will begin later this month or early next month with "citizen dialogues" with groups of randomly selected Ontarians in eight locations around the province.

There will also be town hall meetings, a Web site, and a telephone hotline.

The cynical view of all this is that it is just a smokescreen to provide cover while McGuinty and his ministers go about making the necessary cuts to government spending.

But there is a lot of "boy scout" in McGuinty. He really does believe he can bring a different style to government, one that is more inclusive and consultative than that of his Tory predecessors.

(An aside: Mike Harris' version of consultation did not include "special interests" — that is, anyone who disagreed with his government.)

If McGuinty thinks he is going to close a $4-billion fiscal gap with ideas from the grassroots, however, he is naive.

The average Ontarian doesn't know what the various trade-offs are in budgetary decision making; that is a job we elect MPPs to do.

And rank-and-file civil servants don't know much about government beyond their own particular areas. They might come forward with ideas that save the government $100,000, but not $100 million.

The Premier and his advisers have some ideas of their own for saving money, of course, although McGuinty is being maddeningly vague about what he has in mind. We should learn more later this month when the government releases a discussion paper outlining some options.

But last week McGuinty released some trial balloons in meetings with newspaper editorial boards. These included the sale of government-owned assets like the LCBO, the means-testing of the drug plan for seniors, and the restructuring of hospitals.

None of these ideas is new, of course. Previous governments — the New Democrats as well as the Tories — considered them and either rejected them outright as politically untenable or, in the case of hospital restructuring, gave up after encountering fierce opposition.

A cynic would say these trial balloons are being floated to prepare the public for the worst so that, when the budget is finally produced in late April and none of them is included, we will all heave a sigh of relief.

But again, it is just possible that McGuinty is serious about pursuing these ideas and is hoping to succeed where others have failed because the public will understand that the Liberals' motivation is different.

(In the case of the Tories, spending was cut to help offset lower taxes, whereas the Liberals plan to put the money saved toward improvements in health care and education.)

Again, if that is how McGuinty sees the situation, it is a naive view. The backlash from senior citizens, for example, over any attempt to means-test the universal drug benefit would be withering.

As for the other option in this debate — a tax hike — McGuinty has already ruled it out.

Is this just a cynical position? Is McGuinty simply waiting for a groundswell of support to build behind this option so that he may then say that he has to reconsider? Or does he sincerely believe that families are being taxed enough in Ontario and could not withstand any increases?

What if higher taxes were tied to a specific public good, like the hiring of 8,000 nurses (which the Liberals promised to do during the election campaign)?

We don't know.

What we do know is that McGuinty demonstrated his strength as a leader during last fall's election campaign when he took a gutsy stand against more tax cuts.

But in office he seems more consumed with process than with taking a stand.

Ian Urquhart writes on provincial affairs. His column appears Monday, Wednesday and Saturday. iurquha@thestar.ca.

Additional articles by Ian Urquhart

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Legal Notice: Copyright Toronto Star Newspapers Limited. All rights reserved. Distribution, transmission or republication of any material from www.thestar.com is strictly prohibited without the prior written permission of Toronto Star Newspapers Limited. For information please contact us using our webmaster form. www.thestar.com online since 1996.
 
Re: McGuinty plans cuts to balance Ontario's books SLASH ATT

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Jan. 12, 2004. 08:22 AM
EDITORIAL: Voters already spoke


Economists worth their salt will tell you a case can be made for a government to run a cyclical deficit to stimulate growth when times are bad.

Likewise, they will tell you there is no justification for running a deficit in good times or even reasonable times. To borrow money to cover normal expenses when the tax base is rich enough to pay for them is irresponsible - it simply postpones the problem of paying the bills, and by doing so, makes it that much worse.

To that accepted economic wisdom add the fact that times are not that bad in Ontario at the current time.

Like night after day, it follows that if the province's revenues are insufficient to meet its expenditures, taxes must be raised or spending cut.

The choice is basically a political one that in a democracy ought to be based on the priorities the elected government campaigned on. That, of course, is all standard fare in every first-year political economy course.

So we can't understand why Premier Dalton McGuinty is about to set up "citizen juries" to advise him on the coming budget, on such topics as whether the province should keep running a structural deficit and where its limited money should go.

The plan is to invite ordinary citizens to spend a weekend sitting on one of a number of panels, each consisting of roughly 18 jurors, mandated to advise the government on specific aspects of the budget.

While it is one thing to get views from ordinary people, do Ontario residents, especially those who voted for McGuinty's activist agenda, want to delegate their authority and subjugate their views on health care, education and almost everything else to the whims of a few handfuls of randomly selected jurors?

Ontarians have already entrusted McGuinty with their democratic authority and don't require a straw poll of a tiny minority to either affirm or deny the thrust of their vote.

With these citizen juries McGuinty is evidently seeking to create a protective shield of contrived justification for the tough budgetary choices that, of course, have to be made.

Giving a few people a second post-election vote will not end voter apathy, which is the reason the government is offering for creating these citizen juries.

In fact, these panels could increase voter cynicism if it is seen to be a public relations stunt to justify the breaking of election promises.

Ontario already has a court of public opinion and doesn't need these kangaroo courts.


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Legal Notice: Copyright Toronto Star Newspapers Limited. All rights reserved. Distribution, transmission or republication of any material from www.thestar.com is strictly prohibited without the prior written permission of Toronto Star Newspapers Limited. For information please contact us using our webmaster form. www.thestar.com online since 1996.
 
Re: McGuinty plans cuts to balance Ontario's books SLASH ATT

Wow. I thought some people in here were actually in favour of a balanced budget. And I'm disappointed in you, Are Be, I thougt you were very much anti-deficit spending.

The Tories left a mess, what else can be said...?
 
Re: McGuinty plans cuts to balance Ontario's books SLASH ATT

I'm very pleasantly surprised with McGuinty! Keep on breaking those promises so that we can have good government!( Of course, not being a sick, working class hating bastard, I oppose higher taxes -- we don't need a program to increase the economy of Ohio! ) :tup:


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McGuinty the bold

National Post

Wednesday, January 14, 2004

Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty is an unlikely champion of privatization and austerity. Even before running a left-leaning campaign in last fall's election, the Liberal leader appeared averse to any move that might alienate the various unions and interest groups that supported him. But less than three months into his mandate, Mr. McGuinty appears to have undergone a full-fledged conversion to fiscal conservatism.

We have our doubts as to whether this will last. The Liberals are selling their much-ballyhooed belt-tightening as a way to ensure they can spend more on "priorities," which probably means a massive spree once the books are balanced. But in the meanwhile, as they seek to whittle away a purported $5.6-billion deficit, Mr. McGuinty seems to be giving serious thought to scaling back government programs, cutting seniors' drug benefits, selling public assets, standing up to public service unions in wage disputes and introducing toll roads and other user fees.

Of particular interest to us is Mr. McGuinty's suggestion that he will sell TVOntario, the province's publicly owned television station. It is debatable whether Canada needs a single public broadcaster. But it certainly doesn't need provincially-owned stations to complement the CBC. And surely there are better ways to use the $57-million the provincial government is slated to spend on TVO in 2003-04. Some TVO shows, Studio 2 and Diplomatic Immunity in particular, are worth keeping. But these staples should be able to survive under a new, private owner. If not, their quality would lead other broadcasters to pick them up.

For years, Conservative premier Mike Harris flirted with the idea of privatizing TVO, only to back off each time. Ernie Eves, Mr. McGuinty's predecessor, claimed following his election defeat that he would have balanced the books with asset sales, but has since said TVO should be spared. We never expected to be saying this, but Mr. McGuinty would do best not to follow the lead of either Conservative. Selling TVO may not bring in a ton of revenue for the cash-strapped government. But it would help save money on an annual basis simply by getting the province out of a business it should never have taken on in the first place.
© National Post 2004




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Re: McGuinty plans cuts to balance Ontario's books SLASH ATT

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Jan. 14, 2004. 01:00 AM
Will McGuinty set us straight?

CAROL GOAR

It's been a long time — seven Elysian years — since we've had to grapple with a "structural deficit."

That's the kind of budgetary shortfall that doesn't go away when times get better. It can't be eliminated by temporary spending cuts or wiped out by asset sales.

It means, as Ontario Finance Minister Greg Sorbara said last month: "We have a serious long-term problem. It is a problem rooted in a chronic mismatch of revenues and expenditures."

There are only two ways to get rid of a structural deficit: Provide fewer services or raise taxes.

That is the stark choice that Premier Dalton McGuinty faces.

If he intends to keep his election pledge to balance the budget — as he insists he does — he'll have to break one of his other two campaign commitments. He'll either have to jettison his promise to reinvest in Ontario's schools, hospitals and municipal infrastructure or he'll have to renege on his vow not to increase taxes.

The Premier can talk as much as he likes about "results-based budgeting," "measurable outcomes" and "reinventing government" but he cannot obscure a simple reality: The province can't afford what it is doing now, let alone more.

The real purpose of this winter's "citizens' dialogue" will be to find out whether Ontarians want to pay for the agenda they voted for, or whether they want the Liberals to scrap it.

Economist Hugh Mackenzie of the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives has analyzed the province's fiscal prospects under every conceivable economic scenario.

No matter how he crunches the numbers, he concludes that McGuinty's election platform is unfeasible, unless the government raises taxes or borrows money.

If the economy grows at the rate the Liberals are expecting — by an average of 3 per cent a year over the course of their mandate — they'll be able to deliver approximately 40 per cent of their promises, Mackenzie estimates.

If the economy performs better than expected — 1 per cent a year above the projected growth rate — McGuinty will be able to implement 75 per cent of his platform, he predicts.

If the economy fares worse than anticipated — falling 1 per cent short of the projected growth rate — the government will need every dollar it takes in just to eliminate the deficit it inherited, Mackenzie warns.

"Something has to give," he says. "The government cannot meet its balanced budget commitment and fulfill its public services renewal commitment, without raising taxes."

The Premier can postpone the day of reckoning, but he cannot avoid it.

Undoubtedly, there are savings to be found in Ontario's $70 billion budget. But trimming programs, capping public sector salaries, charging user fees and selling Crown property won't produce nearly enough income to bring expenditures and revenues back into line.

Anything more drastic will provoke fierce resistance.

Health and education, the public's two highest priorities, account for 60 per cent of provincial spending. Cutting either would be highly risky.

The Premier's recent musings about restricting drug benefits to seniors, for instance, have raised questions about his commitment to medicare and his willingness to sacrifice the interests of vulnerable citizens.

Any attempt to disinvest in education would violate McGunity's central campaign commitment to reverse the damage that eight years of Tory cutbacks did to Ontario's public schools.

Nor does the remaining 40 per cent of the budget offer much room for belt-tightening.

The $8.2 billion that Ontario spends on debt servicing is obviously off limits. Cutting social assistance, when 390,000 children in Ontario live in poverty, would be heartless. Chopping environmental protection would be short-sighted. Skimping on justice, when the courts are facing huge backlogs, would be irresponsible.

Juggling priorities sounds good in theory, but McGuinty is likely to find that Ontarians aren't willing to sacrifice what they have to get what he promised.

They voted for better — not fewer — public services. They elected the Liberals to improve their lives, not find new ways to pare and privatize.

It is unfortunate that McGuinty has to clean up the fiscal mess left by the Tories. It is unfortunate that the Liberals promised more than they can deliver. It is unfortunate that taxpayers can't have better services for free.

But it is possible that Ontarians still want the change that they chose. They might even be willing to pay for it.

They certainly deserve a chance to look at the revenue side of the equation.

According to the federal Finance Department, the tax cuts enacted by the former Conservative government cost the province $11.9 billion in forgone revenues last year. By 2005-6, the price will mount to $17.5 billion.

Maybe the reason that Ontario has a structural deficit is that taxpayers were led to believe they could have good schools, hospitals, universities, courts, highways and public services on the cheap.

Maybe McGuinty's real task is to set them straight.

Carol Goar's column appears Monday, Wednesday and Friday.

Additional articles by Carol Goar

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Re: McGuinty plans cuts to balance Ontario's books SLASH ATT

The LCBO is doing that already...

They have started a pilot project where they let private vendors have mini-Beer Store/LCBOs within.

Near my parents' home in rural Niagara there is a corner store which consists of an Avondale, a Donut Diner and recently a mini-Beer Store/LCBO. They have a small walk-in cooler with beer, coolers, as well as various kinds of liquor. They started this last year. Its actually quite convenient because they are open till 11pm every night.

So, this is being tried, but I think it is important to keep it under the Beer Store/LCBO brand.

I'm not sure about selling in grocery stores though. I thought the idea was to make it difficult for minors and the already-inebriated to purchase alcohol. Do you honestly think a cashier at a grocery store is going to care?
 
Re: McGuinty plans cuts to balance Ontario's books SLASH ATT

We need to remember that the Beer Store is not associated with the LCBO in any way. The Beer Store is owned by the people who make the beer, slightly co-op style.
 
Re: McGuinty plans cuts to balance Ontario's books SLASH ATT

Do you honestly think a cashier at a grocery store is going to care?
Probably not, but the same rules would apply to a store that sells cigarettes to minors. They'be be liable.

Also, I'm not sure that treating alcohol like forbidden fruit leads to responsible drinking either.
 

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