Toronto 1705 Weston Road | 147.37m | 43s | Altree | Graziani + Corazza

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Application Details

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Another resubmission with the following stat changes:
  • Total residential units increased from 549 to 559 (still includes 15 rental replacement & 6 affordable)
  • Unit mix redistribution
  • Total vehicular parking decreased from 86 to 70
  • Total bicycle parking decreased from 615 to 576
  • Height decreased from 149.6 to 146.37m
  • Minor GFA increase
PLN - Architectural Plans - Architectural Plans_1705WestonRd_April 2025-0.jpg
 
Would anyone know if these MTSA zoned Proposals are a little bit more immune to the current Condo Market conditions or they are in the same boat as any other condo project in terms of being cancelled and postponed?
 
merigalvez said:
Would anyone know if these MTSA zoned Proposals are a little bit more immune to the current Condo Market conditions or they are in the same boat as any other condo project in terms of being cancelled and postponed?
Click to expand...

The condo market is extremely poor across the board at the market. The only segment with a bit of life is the high-end stuff, and then, there is still limited absorption (sales).

A smattering of projects will go forward, right product, right-place etc. ....

But by and large, only rental with CMHC financing and City incentives is moving forward right now. This is true with or without MTSA.

That will change, at some point, but not all that soon.
 
New submission here.

@Paclo

Whatever your take on the original proposal (a 43 storey tower), double it! Because the proposal as modified is now for two 43 storey towers.

The owners have acquired 6 and 8 Victoria Avenue and consolidated them to the assembly.

The Details:

1777015743968.png


1777015837295.png


1777015903369.png



1777015974948.png

1777015945034.png

1777016006707.png

Stats:

1777016067784.png


Average unit sizes are unrealistically small:

1777016140941.png


That's under 900ft2 for a 3-bed.

Tenure is checked as 'other' (so undecided)

Elevator Ratio:* Based on the stats graphic above

West Building: 526 units, 4 elevators = 1 elevator per 131 units

East Building: 449 units, 4 elevators = 1 elevator per 112 units

^ On Unit totals:

@Paclo will want to help me with my confusion.......

The stats above say 996 units total but the east and west buildings in that same graphic add up to 975 units.

Meanwhile, the Project Data Sheet shows the 996 number, but also 981 units:

1777016715686.png


So we have 3 different numbers.

I'm not having a coffee at 3:45am, I'm going back to bed and waiting for Paclo to figure that out.....
 
Northern Light said:
New submission here.

@Paclo

Whatever your take on the original proposal (a 43 storey tower), double it! Because the proposal as modified is now for two 43 storey towers.

The owners have acquired 6 and 8 Victoria Avenue and consolidated them to the assembly.

The Details:

View attachment 731660
Click to expand...

Not a fan of the towers and massing. I see 43 floors of spandrel and more spandrel.

However, the base level is improved with a better tone that matches the local historic vernacular.
 
Northern Light said:
The condo market is extremely poor across the board at the market. The only segment with a bit of life is the high-end stuff, and then, there is still limited absorption (sales).

A smattering of projects will go forward, right product, right-place etc. ....

But by and large, only rental with CMHC financing and City incentives is moving forward right now. This is true with or without MTSA.

That will change, at some point, but not all that soon.
Click to expand...
Maybe a stupid question. But with the taxes exemption from both levels of governments, plus the announcement from the feds and the government of Ontario to lower development charges should we see an uptick of the condo market housing start in the coming months? I know will take a while for the condo market to be thriving but I would have anticipated the condo market to improve at least a little bit but according to your comment seems the market should remain extremely poor. Any reason why that is ?
 
canucks2030 said:
Maybe a stupid question. But with the taxes exemption from both levels of governments, plus the announcement from the feds and the government of Ontario to lower development charges should we see an uptick of the condo market housing start in the coming months? I know will take a while for the condo market to be thriving but I would have anticipated the condo market to improve at least a little bit but according to your comment seems the market should remain extremely poor. Any reason why that is ?
Click to expand...
It's not enough. The demand was mostly from investors and that has dried up. There is still condo closings for this year and next that will be hugely underwater.

Look at past crashes 1987 here and 2006 in the US. I think Toronto bottomed in 1993 (6 years) and the US (5 years). I'd argue Toronto's was worse. If we used those previous crashes as a guide, we are looking at housing bottoming in 2027/8. Housing didn't really start picking up again in the GTA until the early 2000s (13ish years). As a guide, that would be 2035.
 
canucks2030 said:
Maybe a stupid question. But with the taxes exemption from both levels of governments, plus the announcement from the feds and the government of Ontario to lower development charges should we see an uptick of the condo market housing start in the coming months? I know will take a while for the condo market to be thriving but I would have anticipated the condo market to improve at least a little bit but according to your comment seems the market should remain extremely poor. Any reason why that is ?
Click to expand...

I don't anticipate a significant improvement.

While the cost of the incentives is substantial, you have several limitations.

1) The incentives are time limited, some are 1 year only, none are more than 2 years. So you need people 'ready to buy'.

2) There's an existing glut of units, most undesirably small, still, you need to burn inventory, and that will be a struggle. If I was a ridiculously sweet stranger, and I said here, have 100k on me towards your new condo....would you go out and buy a condo you think is a lousy investment at any price, but especially at 900k, which my money takes down to 800k, but you still don't want to live in it, and you still couldn't rent it out at a profit?

That's a big problem.

Not just for the consumer, but the existing builders who need to clear that inventory before anyone will give them a construction loan for anything else.

3) If every applicant got the maximum, its well less than 20,000 beneficiaries. That's across the whole country (though more than 1/2 that would be in the two markets of Toronto and Vancouver). If you distribute the help more widely, then the amount of the benefit per buyer drops.

4) That's not to say the various forms of aid won't help the market. They will. It will see inventories decline.....but I don't see it as sufficient to even balance the market in 2026 or 2027; maybe in 2028.

But to grow the market is a whole other challenge.

There's a path to that, but so far the only one government has shown an interest in is goosing the population. Which is fine, if there's enough housing and jobs to go around; but if there is, then that wont' goose the market. What gooses the market is demand exceeding supply.

If you don't go the population growth route, you need to boost incomes. That's minimum wage, its tightening labour supply (not just through lower immigration/TFWs/Foreign students) but through enriched parental leave, EI and higher paid vacation.

There are a range of tools; you can pick your own favourites.

But as it stands, this incentives are mostly one-time, for 2 years or less, and insufficient on their own to get back to market growth in less than 3 years.............in my opinion.
 
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Northern Light said:
I don't anticipate a significant improvement.

While the cost of the incentives is substantial, you have several limitations.

1) The incentives are time limited, some are 1 year only, none are more than 2 years. So you need people 'ready to buy'.

2) There's an existing glut of units, most undesirably small, still, you need to burn inventory, and that will be a struggle. If was a ridiculously sweet stranger, and I said here, have 100k on me towards your new condo....would you go out and buy a condo you think is a lousy investment at any price, but especially at 900k, which my money takes down to 800k, but you still don't want to live in it, and you still couldn't rent it out at a profit?

That's a big problem.

Not just for the consumer, but the existing builders who need to clear that inventory before anyone will give them a construction loan for anything else.

3) If every applicant got the maximum, its well less than 20,000 beneficiaries. That's across the whole country (though more than 1/2 that would be in the two markets of Toronto and Vancouver). If you distribute the help more widely, then the amount of the benefit per buyer drops.

4) That's not to say the various forms of aid won't help the market. They will. It will see inventories decline.....but I don't see it as sufficient to even balance the market in 2026 or 2027; maybe in 2028.

But to grow the market is a whole other challenge.

There's a path to that, but so far the only one government has shown an interest in is goosing the population. Which is fine, if there's enough housing and jobs to go around; but if there is, then that wont' goose the market. What gooses the market is demand exceeding supply.

If you don't go the population growth route, you need to boost incomes. That's minimum wage, its tightening labour supply (not just through lower immigration/TFWs/Foreign students) but through enriched parental leave, EI and higher paid vacation.

There are a range of tools; you can pick your own favourites.

But as it stands, this incentives are mostly one-time, for 2 years or less, and insufficient on their own to get back to market growth in less than 3 years.............in my opinion.
Click to expand...
Thanks for all the details. Very much appreciated. Seems I was way too optimistic and naive.
 
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