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Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)

CapitalSeven said:
It's true that rural opposition currently has a real head-scratcher tone these days. CBC Ottawa interviewed someone this week who called $1000 compensation for walking onto a farm for a few hours to do a survey and count gophers insulting and peanuts. We're continually told farmers are all bankrupt and martyrs to the land, and yet a grand for basically nothing is an insult. Of course farmers are one of a few groups CBC are not allowed ever to challenge or disagree with, so no pushback.
Click to expand...
It's as if that particular farmer thought the compensation was for pain and suffering rather than time and damage.

Anyway, two additional stories on the farming situation.

First, the National Farmers Union is calling to cancel Alto. It has published a long statement explaining its position, and a petition.
www.nfu.ca

Alto High Speed Rail: The Wrong Project, in the Wrong Way, at the Wrong Time | National Farmers Union

The National Farmers Union wants green, affordable, and reliable public transportation, and Alto isn’t it.
www.nfu.ca www.nfu.ca

Second, how do you feel about expanding a multi-million-dollar income tax deferral on family farming property?
www.ctvnews.ca

‘Two, three, four million dollars’ to inherit a farm: advocate

Farms can face millions of dollars in taxes during the inheritance process, one advocate told CTV Your Morning.
www.ctvnews.ca www.ctvnews.ca

Seems like maybe the rural and urban types could reach some kind of deal on these issues rather than painting each other as adversaries.
 
StreetcarRider said:
It's as if that particular farmer thought the compensation was for pain and suffering rather than time and damage.

Anyway, two additional stories on the farming situation.

First, the National Farmers Union is calling to cancel Alto. It has published a long statement explaining its position, and a petition.
www.nfu.ca

Alto High Speed Rail: The Wrong Project, in the Wrong Way, at the Wrong Time | National Farmers Union

The National Farmers Union wants green, affordable, and reliable public transportation, and Alto isn’t it.
www.nfu.ca www.nfu.ca

Second, how do you feel about expanding a multi-million-dollar income tax deferral on family farming property?
www.ctvnews.ca

‘Two, three, four million dollars’ to inherit a farm: advocate

Farms can face millions of dollars in taxes during the inheritance process, one advocate told CTV Your Morning.
www.ctvnews.ca www.ctvnews.ca

Seems like maybe the rural and urban types could reach some kind of deal on these issues rather than painting each other as adversaries.
Click to expand...
How about instead of showing 100KM wide area being shown as expropriated draw a line that represents the potential path with the actual size of the corridor? The current diagram makes it look like the corridor is 200 lanes wide. Perhaps that's where the confusion begins?
 
Bordercollie said:
How about instead of showing 100KM wide area being shown as expropriated draw a line that represents the potential path with the actual size of the corridor? The current diagram makes it look like the corridor is 200 lanes wide. Perhaps that's where the confusion begins?
Click to expand...

That's partly what the consultation and site visits are for, to determine the final route. Others in this forum have well-explained the catch 22s of early public consultations.

Anyway, don't take it from me, take it from Renfrew County's Reeve Peter Emon, when the council was recently asked to pass a resolution about Alto (Renfrew County is west of Ottawa):

County council voted last Wednesday on a motion from the Eastern Ontario Wardens Caucus (EOWC) that calls on the government and Alto, the Crown corporation created to build the high-speed rail connection between Toronto and Quebec City, to “fully explore train route options along existing infrastructure corridors, such as VIA Rail and/or Highway 401.”

The motion notes that EOWC “formally opposes the Alto project in its current form.”

But in a surprise move, council voted unanimously to reject the motion.

Renfrew Reeve Peter Emon said he felt the motion was “premature.”

He said the “details” the EOWC is looking for are similar to people who turn out at the first mention of a new subdivision looking for drainage plans and other specifics.

“You know that that’s not going to happen until you get to the signing of the site plan agreement and things like that,” he said.

“So I think this is premature, because I don’t think those answers are going to be available for at least five years,” until the final route has been set.

northrenfrewtimes.ca

County changes track on high-speed rail

Renfrew County council has rejected a motion from its Eastern Ontario colleagues to oppose the federal government’s high-speed rail project. County council voted last Wednesday on a motion from the…
northrenfrewtimes.ca northrenfrewtimes.ca
 
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Here’s my little anecdote. I was speaking with my 70yo mom who is for all intents and purposes intelligent, left-leaning and fairly aware politically. She mentioned about her friend who lives in Sydenham and how for this high speed rail project they’re going to take her land…apparently her friend is convinced of this and the way she told my mom, my mom assumed it was a done deal. 🙄

I had to tell her that I’m positive the woman’s house will be fine, and that the route will probably be the northern route and therefore nowhere near Sydenham. So that’s the type of thing we’re dealing with here.

As for me living downtown Toronto, and having ridden trains all over Europe and Japan, this project can’t happen fast enough!
 
ndawgg said:
Here’s my little anecdote. I was speaking with my 70yo mom who is for all intents and purposes intelligent, left-leaning and fairly aware politically. She mentioned about her friend who lives in Sydenham and how for this high speed rail project they’re going to take her land…apparently her friend is convinced of this and the way she told my mom, my mom assumed it was a done deal. 🙄

I had to tell her that I’m positive the woman’s house will be fine, and that the route will probably be the northern route and therefore nowhere near Sydenham. So that’s the type of thing we’re dealing with here.

As for me living downtown Toronto, and having ridden trains all over Europe and Japan, this project can’t happen fast enough!
Click to expand...
What if it turns out her house does sit on the ROW they actually build on? That could always be a real possibility. How do you appease those people who will be affected?
 
generalcanada said:
Thats basically it. As soon as the northern route is chosen 99% of this uproar will die down. especially when the 10m row will be publicized. people will be like. oh wait its not near me.
Click to expand...

But then you have this to deal with:

Impact of the Proposed ALTO High-Speed Rail Network on Ontario Prescribed Snowmobile Trails

The Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs (OFSC) appreciates the opportunity to participate in the public consultation on a proposed high-speed rail network in the Province of Ontario. The OFSC opposes this project as currently proposed, due to its impact on riders, communities, local...
www.ofsc.on.ca www.ofsc.on.ca
Impact of the Proposed ALTO High-Speed Rail Network on Ontario Prescribed Snowmobile Trails
7 April 2026
OFSC
OFSC Responds to ALTO train


The Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs (OFSC) appreciates the opportunity to participate in the public consultation on a proposed high-speed rail network in the Province of Ontario. The OFSC opposes this project as currently proposed, due to its impact on riders, communities, local businesses, landowners, and Ontario’s winter economy.

Background

The OFSC is a not-for-profit organization that provides leadership to member organizations to enable exceptional snowmobile trails and rider experiences throughout Ontario.

The OFSC is a service delivery partner on behalf of the Ministry of Transportation of Ontario (MTO). The OFSC, through 179 community-based snowmobile clubs, provides accessibility to, and maintenance of, 30,000 kilometres of recreational prescribed snowmobile trails, connecting all corners of Ontario. This is accomplished and funded through the sale of Snowmobile Trail Permits and through the signing of thousands of Land Use Agreements to provide access.

Areas of Concern

Impact on Community-Based Snowmobile Clubs

The OFSC Prescribed Trail Network is the second largest in North America. The two proposed high-speed train network routes would severely impact the OFSC Prescribed Trail Network, essentially disconnecting it. It is estimated that the current proposed routes affected would negatively impact up to 2,200km of snowmobile trails and 19 volunteer-based snowmobile clubs across four OFSC Districts.

Organized snowmobiling is more than just a hobby; it is an economic juggernaut that creates a tremendous positive economic impact in Ontario. A recent study found snowmobiling-related economic activities result in an economic impact of between $3 billion and $6 billion annually. OFSC snowmobile trail riders contribute $1.48 billion in expenditure and support 9,307 full-time jobs. The total amount of taxes generated by OFSC snowmobile trails is estimated to be $538 million. These proposed routes threaten to sever arterial north/south trail connections and the economic activity that comes with it. A breakdown by affected Club/District is provided below and in the Appendix.
District Club KM
1 Athens & District Snowmobile Club 39.97
Beautiful Eastern Association of Snowmobile Trails 280.81
Carleton Regional Snowmobile Club 126.06
Eastern Ontario Snowmobile Club 315.66
Glengarry Snowmobile Club 21.40
Kemptville Snowmobile Klub 4.88
Lennox & Addington Ridge Runners 116.96
Osgoode Carleton Snowmobile Trail Club 8.92
Rideau Ridge Riders 137.13
Rideau Snowmobile Club 132.00
District 1 Total 1183.79
2 Havelock & District Snowmobile Club 77.45
Mazinaw Powerline Snowmobile Club 30.65
District 2 Total 108.10
3 Centre Hastings Snowmobile Club 111.31
Ganaraska Snowmobile Club 131.10
Long Sault Ridge Runners 49.94
Percy Boom River Rats 124.55
Port Perry Snowmobile Club 42.61
Rice Lake Snow Drifters 74.39
District 3 Total 533.89
6 Snow Road Snowmobile Club 371.01
District 6 Total 371.01
Grand Total 2196.79




Over/Underpasses

If this project is approved, the OFSC will require dozens of over/underpasses to retain connectivity. With proposed speeds of “300km/h or more” and 20-30 trains travelling each way per day, at-grade level crossings would not be feasible. Both options would need to be wide enough to accommodate two-way snowmobile traffic, as well as provide enough overhead clearance to permit access for industrial snow groomers. Importantly, both would have to be engineered to accommodate the significant loads brought about by snow, snowmobiles, and industrial grooming equipment. Said simply, the OFSC is not in a financial position to cover the costs of this infrastructure.




Legacy Rail Lines & Utility Corridors

Many OFSC Prescribed Trails use legacy rail lines and utility corridors as part of the snowmobile trail network; these lands have long provided powersport access to communities. If ALTO’s intent is to expropriate rail lines and utility corridors, then trail re-routes are required, and this can be a costly and lengthy process. In any scenario, expropriating these lines will result in a tangible and immediate loss to the OFSC trail network and the local economy.

Conclusion

Without coordination and consultation to retain snowmobile trail connectivity, the proposed high-speed train network would critically damage organized snowmobiling in Ontario. Based on the current proposed routes, your stated objective of “bringing our lives and cities closer together” can only be achieved by severing communities that rely on snowmobiling to generate a winter economy. These communities become collateral damage and represent but a momentary blur on your 300 KM/H journey. Given their geographic location relative to stations/stops, they will receive no value, stimulus, or benefit. Irrespective of what route is chosen, it is critical that your planning includes retaining snowmobile trail connectivity.

We would be happy to discuss this matter further.

Sincerely,

Ryan J. Eickmeier
Chief Executive Officer
 
micheal_can said:
But then you have this to deal with:

Impact of the Proposed ALTO High-Speed Rail Network on Ontario Prescribed Snowmobile Trails

The Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs (OFSC) appreciates the opportunity to participate in the public consultation on a proposed high-speed rail network in the Province of Ontario. The OFSC opposes this project as currently proposed, due to its impact on riders, communities, local...
www.ofsc.on.ca www.ofsc.on.ca
Impact of the Proposed ALTO High-Speed Rail Network on Ontario Prescribed Snowmobile Trails
7 April 2026
OFSC
OFSC Responds to ALTO train


The Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs (OFSC) appreciates the opportunity to participate in the public consultation on a proposed high-speed rail network in the Province of Ontario. The OFSC opposes this project as currently proposed, due to its impact on riders, communities, local businesses, landowners, and Ontario’s winter economy.

Background

The OFSC is a not-for-profit organization that provides leadership to member organizations to enable exceptional snowmobile trails and rider experiences throughout Ontario.

The OFSC is a service delivery partner on behalf of the Ministry of Transportation of Ontario (MTO). The OFSC, through 179 community-based snowmobile clubs, provides accessibility to, and maintenance of, 30,000 kilometres of recreational prescribed snowmobile trails, connecting all corners of Ontario. This is accomplished and funded through the sale of Snowmobile Trail Permits and through the signing of thousands of Land Use Agreements to provide access.

Areas of Concern

Impact on Community-Based Snowmobile Clubs

The OFSC Prescribed Trail Network is the second largest in North America. The two proposed high-speed train network routes would severely impact the OFSC Prescribed Trail Network, essentially disconnecting it. It is estimated that the current proposed routes affected would negatively impact up to 2,200km of snowmobile trails and 19 volunteer-based snowmobile clubs across four OFSC Districts.

Organized snowmobiling is more than just a hobby; it is an economic juggernaut that creates a tremendous positive economic impact in Ontario. A recent study found snowmobiling-related economic activities result in an economic impact of between $3 billion and $6 billion annually. OFSC snowmobile trail riders contribute $1.48 billion in expenditure and support 9,307 full-time jobs. The total amount of taxes generated by OFSC snowmobile trails is estimated to be $538 million. These proposed routes threaten to sever arterial north/south trail connections and the economic activity that comes with it. A breakdown by affected Club/District is provided below and in the Appendix.
District Club KM
1 Athens & District Snowmobile Club 39.97
Beautiful Eastern Association of Snowmobile Trails 280.81
Carleton Regional Snowmobile Club 126.06
Eastern Ontario Snowmobile Club 315.66
Glengarry Snowmobile Club 21.40
Kemptville Snowmobile Klub 4.88
Lennox & Addington Ridge Runners 116.96
Osgoode Carleton Snowmobile Trail Club 8.92
Rideau Ridge Riders 137.13
Rideau Snowmobile Club 132.00
District 1 Total 1183.79
2 Havelock & District Snowmobile Club 77.45
Mazinaw Powerline Snowmobile Club 30.65
District 2 Total 108.10
3 Centre Hastings Snowmobile Club 111.31
Ganaraska Snowmobile Club 131.10
Long Sault Ridge Runners 49.94
Percy Boom River Rats 124.55
Port Perry Snowmobile Club 42.61
Rice Lake Snow Drifters 74.39
District 3 Total 533.89
6 Snow Road Snowmobile Club 371.01
District 6 Total 371.01
Grand Total 2196.79




Over/Underpasses

If this project is approved, the OFSC will require dozens of over/underpasses to retain connectivity. With proposed speeds of “300km/h or more” and 20-30 trains travelling each way per day, at-grade level crossings would not be feasible. Both options would need to be wide enough to accommodate two-way snowmobile traffic, as well as provide enough overhead clearance to permit access for industrial snow groomers. Importantly, both would have to be engineered to accommodate the significant loads brought about by snow, snowmobiles, and industrial grooming equipment. Said simply, the OFSC is not in a financial position to cover the costs of this infrastructure.




Legacy Rail Lines & Utility Corridors

Many OFSC Prescribed Trails use legacy rail lines and utility corridors as part of the snowmobile trail network; these lands have long provided powersport access to communities. If ALTO’s intent is to expropriate rail lines and utility corridors, then trail re-routes are required, and this can be a costly and lengthy process. In any scenario, expropriating these lines will result in a tangible and immediate loss to the OFSC trail network and the local economy.

Conclusion

Without coordination and consultation to retain snowmobile trail connectivity, the proposed high-speed train network would critically damage organized snowmobiling in Ontario. Based on the current proposed routes, your stated objective of “bringing our lives and cities closer together” can only be achieved by severing communities that rely on snowmobiling to generate a winter economy. These communities become collateral damage and represent but a momentary blur on your 300 KM/H journey. Given their geographic location relative to stations/stops, they will receive no value, stimulus, or benefit. Irrespective of what route is chosen, it is critical that your planning includes retaining snowmobile trail connectivity.

We would be happy to discuss this matter further.

Sincerely,

Ryan J. Eickmeier
Chief Executive Officer
Click to expand...
Right but we also dont know which trails and roads get closed. theres a big difference in overpasses/underpasses between a 7ft by 10ft culvert and a 2 lane/4 lane road thats 3 times the size.
yes Alto is saying 0 grade crossings but these concerns will be taken care of and might I add paid for.

, the OFSC is not in a financial position to cover the costs of this infrastructure.
Click to expand...

someone told them if they want an underpass they will need to pay for it? naw no shot
 
I do think there is a concern that recreational trails should be maintained or replaced where ALTO is built. Such as if an abandoned rail corridor that is being used as a recreational trail is taken for ALTO, then they should build a new recreational trail to replace it. Also build crossings if a trail is intersected.
 
There are many commonalties needed.

We need farm/migration/trail/animal crossings, so these can be multi-purpose buy-ins. It doesn't have to be "Because of OSFC" but a large combination, like "....for all maintenance equipment, trail users, snowmobilers, animal migration, farmers, and more..."

Many crossings can legitimately happen in the ALTO budget, if you give a good buy in.

China viaducted most of their shebang, we shouldn't leave out a (mega)token's worth of multipurpose crossings.

P.S. Check out my fun posts about ALTO in the GO Electrification thread. (There's commonalties).
 
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micheal_can said:
What if it turns out her house does sit on the ROW they actually build on? That could always be a real possibility. How do you appease those people who will be affected?
Click to expand...
Jam_Press_JMP616346.jpg
 
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