cplchanb
Senior Member
Just caught the northlander on its return leg just north of oriole go station
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Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation
- Thread starter CDL.TO
- Start date
Just caught the northlander on its return leg just north of oriole go station
smallspy
Senior Member
Guess so.
My info comes from the guy at Metrolinx who is coordinating it all. If he says no, it doesn't happen.
Dan
micheal_can
Senior Member
Do we know the dates and times of the next runs?
dowlingm
Senior Member
I wonder what the ridership of the express Matheson Cochrane and V/V bus versus staying on the train for two extra hours into and out of Timmins
micheal_can
Senior Member
Chances are, heading south, there are not many getting off, but getting on there would be enough. Remember, most people are likely to use the train to get down south.
lenaitch
Senior Member
It will probably depend on the ultimate destination of the passenger. If they are ending their journey in Cochrane or perhaps getting a ride west towards Hearst/Kap, they would probably take the bus. If they are coordinating with the PBX, maybe not. It's going to be a bit of a toss-up whether you want to spend a couple of hours on a train in South Porcupine in the middle of the night in the middle of winter or a couple of hours on the platform in Cochrane in the middle of the night in the middle of the winter. Maybe they will open the Station Inn a couple of hours early, but that comes at a cost. It's a bit of an awkward layover.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
This is a very important point. If the bus just goes from Matheson to Cochrane and ends there, it's not very useful since it doesn't help you get to Moosonee any earlier. But if the bus continues on to/from Hearst via Kapuskasing, it would provide an enormous benefit to those travellers, cutting two to three hours off the trip time, which is enormous.
The timing for the northbound trip is also terrible for northern communities like Kirkland Lake, Timmins, Cochrane, Kapuskasing and Hearst, with bus transfers occuring obscenely early in the morning. It appears that the schedule was optimized for Toronto-Huntsville-North Bay segment at the expense of the north.
It would be much more effective from the perspective of northern travellers if the northbound trip were about two hours later, something like this:
Passing through North Bay in the middle of the night is of course a downside for those passengers, but I don't think Toronto - North Bay should be the focus of the service, since there are several bus trips that will still exist, and be just as fast as the train anyway. Where the train has a real competitive advantage is on trips to the North, since the much larger shoulder and legroom makes it less uncomfortable as an overnight service than a bus would be. If people can sleep on the train that effectively saves them a lot of time.
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nfitz
Superstar
Which is why years ago there used to be two or three trains a day on the Toronto to North Bay segment.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
Exactly.
If the Province is interested in developing that portion of the route it would make more sense to run separate daytime trains to North Bay and overnight service to Timmins/Cochrane.
Here's a longer-term vision to illustrate what that could look like. It would require at least two new sleeper trainsets for the Northlander (sleeper) service so it certainly wouldn't happen anytime soon.
Fleet usage:
- 2 intercity trainsets +1 spare (existing ONR Siemens sets) for Toronto - North Bay service
- 2 sleeper trainsets (new trains tacked onto Via Rail's long-distance fleet order) for Toronto - Cochrane service
Track requirements:
- Track speed upgrades on the newly-acquired ONR Newmarket Subdivision between Washago to North Bay, similar to the upgrades already completed north of North Bay
- Lengthen some more passing tracks on CN Bala Subdivision between Richmond Hill and Washago
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nfitz
Superstar
I doubt there's be much capital made available once this is actually running. I feel this is a unique one-time thing. But who knows what the future holds!
micheal_can
Senior Member
My hope would be if there is any extra capital, they keep the planned timing and then add a second train to Sudbury/SSM through North Bay, serving North Bay at a better time. For this to happen, the ONR would need to buy the other lines, of which did anyone see the ONR buying the Newmarket Sub?
crs1026
Superstar
Quite possible if the only plan is to slip the Northlander into sidings to let the freights slip by. That will limit its velocity.
But - if the desire is to have the freights move out of the way to keep the Northlander moving - especially if there is a Northlander running in each direction at the same time - you need sidings up to 3 miles long. That means grade separations as level crossings would be blocked for unacceptable lengths of time.
A little examination of Google Maps shows that there are very few stretches of that line where even a 10,000 foot siding can be built without tying up a level crossing.
Grade separations are good, and many will happen as the territory adds density - but don’t underestimate how this will add to the cost.
- Paul
crs1026
Superstar
PS - Your draft schedule pretty much assumes that there is only one Northlander on the Bala Sub at one time. But the evening northbound will depart Toronto just as the second southbound day train hits Washago.
Putting even one 70mph passenger train on 70 miles of track (Setter to Washago) effectively halts freight activity for an hour. Put two opposing 70 mph trains on the territory at once effectively means the RTC has to place every freight in a siding, plus leaving one siding open as the meeting point for the two passengers. It’s a lot of sidings needed and a challenge for the RTC.
It all sounds so easy, until you try it. I would bet CN has a fit if a three train each way daily schedule is proposed. At the least, it’s a lot of sidings needed and don’t forget those grade separations. It worked in the past because freights were much shorter and fit into the many sidings. These days, there are fewer sidings and the trains don’t fit anymore.
And the North Bay-Toronto freight needs a place to fit into the plan without delaying Northlanders..
- Paul
Putting even one 70mph passenger train on 70 miles of track (Setter to Washago) effectively halts freight activity for an hour. Put two opposing 70 mph trains on the territory at once effectively means the RTC has to place every freight in a siding, plus leaving one siding open as the meeting point for the two passengers. It’s a lot of sidings needed and a challenge for the RTC.
It all sounds so easy, until you try it. I would bet CN has a fit if a three train each way daily schedule is proposed. At the least, it’s a lot of sidings needed and don’t forget those grade separations. It worked in the past because freights were much shorter and fit into the many sidings. These days, there are fewer sidings and the trains don’t fit anymore.
And the North Bay-Toronto freight needs a place to fit into the plan without delaying Northlanders..
- Paul
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nfitz
Superstar
How many freights run on that section a day?