TTC: Scarborough Busway Construction (portion of the former Scarborough RT route)

[yurt2022]

Does anyone find the Tara stop useful or would it just be impeding the speed of the busway?

 

[RapidTransit]

Does anyone find the Tara stop useful or would it just be impeding the speed of the busway?

Any extra stop that the RT didn't serve would slow down service. It's bad enough the RT shut down the way it is, lets stop with the adding of stops. The amount of ppl using Tara won't justify the cost of the stop. Plus they could use 43 or 57 as they've done for 41+ years

 

[nfitz]

Any extra stop that the RT didn't serve would slow down service. It's bad enough the RT shut down the way it is, lets stop with the adding of stops. The amount of ppl using Tara won't justify the cost of the stop. Plus they could use 43 or 57 as they've done for 41+ years

Stop with the adding stops? The Tara stop has been discussed for years. What other stops do you think they are planning?

Looking at the EPR appendix, I only see Tara added to the two existing stations.

 

[reaperexpress]

Stop with the adding stops? The Tara stop has been discussed for years. What other stops do you think they are planning?

Looking at the EPR appendix, I only see Tara added to the two existing stations.

View attachment 724082

Note that they're adding a pedestrian signal to get pedestrians across the busway at-grade, which is quite expensive. To avoid bus delays they'll need to install detectors 15 seconds in advance of the intersection (roughly 200 m at 50 km/h). Assuming 7s Flashing Don't Walk and 4s Solid Don't Walk clearance per City standard, and the light changing to green 4 s before the bus arrives. Southbound there's a near-side stop before the signal so either they still detect buses 200m in advance and leave the light in Don't Walk the whole time the bus is loading (forcing pedestrians to wait unnecessarily or more likely just ignore the signal), or they put the detector in the stop and effectively require every bus to stop at the stop even if nobody is waiting.

If TTC Streetcar ops were in charge, they'd definitely add a 25 km/h slow zone through the platforms in case someone jumps in front of the streetcar. We'll see if bus operations allows buses to pass through at full speed when the stop is not requested or if they implement a slow zone as well.

 

[yurt2022]

Note that they're adding a pedestrian signal to get pedestrians across the busway at-grade, which is quite expensive. To avoid bus delays they'll need to install detectors 15 seconds in advance of the intersection (roughly 200 m at 50 km/h). Assuming 7s Flashing Don't Walk and 4s Solid Don't Walk clearance per City standard, and the light changing to green 4 s before the bus arrives. Southbound there's a near-side stop before the signal so either they still detect buses 200m in advance and leave the light in Don't Walk the whole time the bus is loading (forcing pedestrians to wait unnecessarily or more likely just ignore the signal), or they put the detector in the stop and effectively require every bus to stop at the stop even if nobody is waiting.

If TTC Streetcar ops were in charge, they'd definitely add a 25 km/h slow zone through the platforms in case someone jumps in front of the streetcar. We'll see if bus operations allows buses to pass through at full speed when the stop is not requested or if they implement a slow zone as well.

Do you have the detailed design docs for the busway by any chance?

 

[A 6264]

Any extra stop that the RT didn't serve would slow down service. It's bad enough the RT shut down the way it is, lets stop with the adding of stops. The amount of ppl using Tara won't justify the cost of the stop. Plus they could use 43 or 57 as they've done for 41+ years

One station (Tara) is being added, another (Midlands) is being taken away, so the busway has the same number of stations between Kennedy and Scarborough Centre. (McCowan, the end of the SRT, is also gone.)

 

[Northern Light]

Note that they're adding a pedestrian signal to get pedestrians across the busway at-grade, which is quite expensive. To avoid bus delays they'll need to install detectors 15 seconds in advance of the intersection (roughly 200 m at 50 km/h). Assuming 7s Flashing Don't Walk and 4s Solid Don't Walk clearance per City standard, and the light changing to green 4 s before the bus arrives. Southbound there's a near-side stop before the signal so either they still detect buses 200m in advance and leave the light in Don't Walk the whole time the bus is loading (forcing pedestrians to wait unnecessarily or more likely just ignore the signal), or they put the detector in the stop and effectively require every bus to stop at the stop even if nobody is waiting.

If TTC Streetcar ops were in charge, they'd definitely add a 25 km/h slow zone through the platforms in case someone jumps in front of the streetcar. We'll see if bus operations allows buses to pass through at full speed when the stop is not requested or if they implement a slow zone as well.

Reaper, you've become a cynic in your old (err, not yet middle) age)....

 

[reaperexpress]

Reaper, you've become a cynic in your old (err, not yet middle) age)....

The discussion was regarding whether the Tara stop is a worthwhile expense (both in terms of travel time and in terms of construction/maintenance). The information about how a pedestrian signal on a busway operates is some context that is very relevant to that discussion.

The comment about streetcar ops is not an exaggeration, it literally says in the Streetcar Operating Policy that you need to slow down to 25 km/h at platforms. Traditionally busways have permitted 50 km/h through stations, but that's when the buses (e.g. Ottawa Transitway, Mississauga Transitway) are a lane away from the platform and there's also a concrete barrier preventing people from crossing the busway within the platform. It is very likely that the speed limit through a platform immediately adjacent to the road would be less than that.

 

[reaperexpress]

Do you have the detailed design docs for the busway by any chance?

No I'm just referring to the document @nfitz liked above. The signal timing information is from the City-wide signals policy available on the city website.

 

[Northern Light]

The discussion was regarding whether the Tara stop is a worthwhile expense (both in terms of travel time and in terms of construction/maintenance). The information about how a pedestrian signal on a busway operates is some context that is very relevant to that discussion.

The comment about streetcar ops is not an exaggeration, it literally says in the Streetcar Operating Policy that you need to slow down to 25 km/h at platforms. Traditionally busways have permitted 50 km/h through stations, but that's when the buses (e.g. Ottawa Transitway, Mississauga Transitway) are a lane away from the platform and there's also a concrete barrier preventing people from crossing the busway within the platform. It is very likely that the speed limit through a platform immediately adjacent to the road would be less than that.

I wasn't criticizing the post at all. Just having some fun.

 

[A 6264]

I wasn't criticizing the post at all. Just having some fun.

 

[Jonathan's Junction]

The discussion was regarding whether the Tara stop is a worthwhile expense (both in terms of travel time and in terms of construction/maintenance). The information about how a pedestrian signal on a busway operates is some context that is very relevant to that discussion.

The comment about streetcar ops is not an exaggeration, it literally says in the Streetcar Operating Policy that you need to slow down to 25 km/h at platforms. Traditionally busways have permitted 50 km/h through stations, but that's when the buses (e.g. Ottawa Transitway, Mississauga Transitway) are a lane away from the platform and there's also a concrete barrier preventing people from crossing the busway within the platform. It is very likely that the speed limit through a platform immediately adjacent to the road would be less than that.

If they made a 25 km/h limit through the platform, that would be so ridiculous. Do we make busses go 25km/h past curbside bus stops on regular roads that have far more traffic?

 

[ayl5402]

When the SRT was initially being planned Tara and a midblock industrial stop between Lawrence and Ellesmere were considered. Now Tara is the busway stop. Pedestrian symbol doesn't sound very necessary.

 

[lastcommodore]

If they made a 25 km/h limit through the platform, that would be so ridiculous. Do we make busses go 25km/h past curbside bus stops on regular roads that have far more traffic?

Perhaps one of the benefits of the "auto lobby" is that they have kind of shown us how you can just like, not be insane about safety by just going "Well you actually can drive on the curbside lane without going 25kmh, 'cause like we already do it?"

To add onto this discussion, as far as I know similar speed limits are enforced on the Mississauga Transitway western stations (Erin Mills/Winston Churchill) where there is an uncontrolled pedestrian crossing from one direction to the other-- however I am not entirely sure if that is a matter of the crossing or something else.

 

[reaperexpress]

Perhaps one of the benefits of the "auto lobby" is that they have kind of shown us how you can just like, not be insane about safety by just going "Well you actually can drive on the curbside lane without going 25kmh, 'cause like we already do it?"

To add onto this discussion, as far as I know similar speed limits are enforced on the Mississauga Transitway western stations (Erin Mills/Winston Churchill) where there is an uncontrolled pedestrian crossing from one direction to the other-- however I am not entirely sure if that is a matter of the crossing or something else.

Huh you're right. I'd never noticed that. I found this video of Route 29 and at 1:16:34 we can see the Maximum 25 km/h signs entering Winston Churchil station.

I assume it's due to the at-grade crossings, since the stations with grade-separated crossings have a 50 km/h limit (like Central Parkway at 1:27:25).

Renforth station (at 1:35:45) also has a 25 km/h limit even though the pedestrian crossings are grade-separated but I actually remember that one being installed. People were running across the roadway and climbing the central barrier rather than going up an over to transfer between platforms, so they installed that 25 limit as a "quick fix". They then added a glass extension on top of the barriers to make them harder to climb (visible in the footage) but never put the speed limit back up to 50.

Like you said, it's interesting that the City doesn't require car drivers (or transport truck drivers) to slow to 25 km/h at every at-grade pedestrian crossing on the general road network. Reducing speeds at pedestrian crossings is definitely good for safety - for example in the Netherlands the design guidance is to install traffic calming at Zebra Crossings to reduce the speed of traffic to 30 km/h at the crossing. But in Toronto it seems that this standard only applies in to public transit vehicles, not private vehicles.