Finch West Line 6 LRT

[yrt+viva=1system]

Not a scientifically empirically backed explanation but here are some pics of the rails between the Eglinton and Finch LRT. You can see the wheel-rail interface difference with the shine. These are taken at station stops.

Eglinton LRT:

Finch LRT:

The wheel profile on the Eglinton LRT seems to be very similar to the profile that the TTC uses for the subway.

 

[smallspy]

So I really gotta ask, 'cause I dont have much knowledge on this particular part-- how in the world did Alstom screw it up? What in did the Citadis Spirit have that the Dualis did not, that made Ottawa and Metrolinx choose the Spirit, and how in the world did the Spitits end up so damn unreliable and problematic? The Citadis line has sold countless trams, it's not like Alstom's new to this.

The Citadis Spririt has a new truck design which, as far as I can tell, is unprecedented in its use under a low-floor LRT car. It is an inside-framed truck with swing link suspension - but with motors and gearboxes mounted outboard of the wheels. All of those things have long existed independently of each other in the railroad world and without issue, but not all in one package like here. The more and more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that it must be changed.

Dan

 

[APTA-2048]

Will be interesting to see what changes will be made for Quebec’s Citadis Spirit LRVs. Neither Quebec nor Toronto have the same requirements as Ottawa did. So it would make sense to use a less problematic design going forward.

Toronto only got Ottawa clones because Metrolinx panicked and bought cars they didn’t really need.

 

[nfitz]

Not a scientifically empirically backed explanation but here are some pics of the rails between the Eglinton and Finch LRT. You can see the wheel-rail interface difference with the shine. These are taken at station stops.

Is there more wear on Eglinton where the trains are stopping? (which would be a downside of ATC).

 

[urbanclient]

Is there more wear on Eglinton where the trains are stopping? (which would be a downside of ATC).

I am very certain that ATC is supposed to result in less wear than manual operations, barring exceptions like Line 5 slamming on the magnetic track brakes due to intrusions and software bugs.

 

[nfitz]

I am very certain that ATC is supposed to result in less wear than manual operations, barring exceptions like Line 5 slamming on the magnetic track brakes due to intrusions and software bugs.

Wouldn't the breaking and acceleration be more specific to a certain very small piece of track, for each wheel? In a bigger picture, they certainly replace the streetcar track at stops more frequently, and I'd have guessed that it would only be more so if they stopped at exactly the same spot every time. Though perhaps the software varies the stopping location by a small amount each time - after 50 years of ATC operations I guess this isn't exactly cutting edge issues.

But I'm pulling it out of my ass ...

 

[urbanclient]

Wouldn't the breaking and acceleration be more specific to a certain very small piece of track, for each wheel? In a bigger picture, they certainly replace the streetcar track at stops more frequently, and I'd have guessed that it would only be more so if they stopped at exactly the same spot every time. Though perhaps the software varies the stopping location by a small amount each time - after 50 years of ATC operations I guess this isn't exactly cutting edge issues.

But I'm pulling it out of my ass ...

You're not totally wrong, as far as I know ATC is supposed make the acceleration and braking more predictable, and more gradual in Toronto's case (unfortunately?)

A human operator can put the pedal to the metal metaphorically like on Line 2. They may stay on the throttle too long, brake too late, too hard, leading to more use of the friction brakes relative to regen brakes, more wear for everything, more brake dust.

 

[yrt+viva=1system]

Is there more wear on Eglinton where the trains are stopping? (which would be a downside of ATC).

Good question, I’m not sure if there is more wear. Usually stations and stops have more wear in general.

The photos that I had taken was to try to show how the wheel profile contacts with the railhead. This effects the ride quality of vehicles.

 

[Leo_Chan]

I diverted my commute one hour and have taken my very first ride on 6 FW leaving Humber 12:02 EB, arrive 12:40

Will do some more analysis later on the data as ive taken a gpx, incl. theoretical times, but initial points:

38 mins end to end. 16.3kmh avg
18 greens and 5 reds. (Ped crossing not included- Green) Two greens were clipped (Tram slowed for a red then light turned green)
Every single red was clipped, followed by the left turn phase. All reds could have been avoided if left turns ran first, but then we would have caught some 5 reds waiting for lefts to go first... to literally nobody's surprise who paid attention to @reaperexpress, moving the left turn phase to after through traffic doesnt increase green time... We need phase rotation

Additional thoughts:
- I like the foamer window.
- The trams dont seem to take the humber curve nicely.
- Smooth, but feels more like rail thats been roughed in for some tibe, like on the streetcar network, not new rail like line 5
- Operators are incredibly cautious with speed. They are usually slowed down well before the intersection. Does the station slowzone apply to the the platform on the opposite direction???
- Whoever thought to install a big handbar right in front of the screens should have their sanity checked.

View attachment 722989

The handlebar blocking the screen was my first thought once stepping on the trains.

 

[pmacpherson68]

Will be interesting to see what changes will be made for Quebec’s Citadis Spirit LRVs. Neither Quebec nor Toronto have the same requirements as Ottawa did. So it would make sense to use a less problematic design going forward.

Toronto only got Ottawa clones because Metrolinx panicked and bought cars they didn’t really need.

I know eh... there was actually a time when Metrolinx thought that the line would be ready before the cars... lol

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

Wouldn't the breaking and acceleration be more specific to a certain very small piece of track, for each wheel? In a bigger picture, they certainly replace the streetcar track at stops more frequently, and I'd have guessed that it would only be more so if they stopped at exactly the same spot every time. Though perhaps the software varies the stopping location by a small amount each time - after 50 years of ATC operations I guess this isn't exactly cutting edge issues.

But I'm pulling it out of my ass ...

Similar occurrence at bus stops with asphalt depressions caused by the heavy buses.

Toronto is having to use concrete instead of asphalt to reduce that problem. Wonder if they do allow for replacement tracks at streetcars, light rail, and subways wherever they stop for the same reason?

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

Metrolinx ‘firewall’ blocking Finch LRT location data from transit apps​

From https://www.torontotoday.ca/local/city-hall/metrolinx-firewall-blocking-finch-lrt-location-data-transit-apps-12025338

Locked out of its own data, the TTC admits Google Maps and popular transit apps are forced to rely on inaccurate scheduled times for the Finch West LRT

Months after Premier Doug Ford and Mayor Olivia Chow celebrated the opening of the Finch West LRT, TTC riders still can't access accurate information about when the next train will arrive.

That’s because a Metrolinx “firewall” is blocking the flow of real-time location data for the new line, according to a recent TTC report.

Platforms like Google Maps, and apps like Transit and TTCWatch, all rely on open source data to access the real-time locations of buses, streetcars and other transit vehicles, and relay that information to their users.

The ability for riders to know how long they have to wait for a vehicle has become one of the hallmarks of a modern transit system. More than half of Toronto transit riders use Google Maps to plan their trips, according to a recent TTC survey, and one-third use Transit app. The same report calls third-party apps "critical" for riders.

However, neither platform can access real-time vehicle location data for Line 6.

"Real-time Line 6 vehicle location and arrival prediction data is owned by a Metrolinx vendor and access is limited due to firewall/security constraints," per the TTC report.

The vendor is Mosaic Transit Group — the construction consortium of ACS Infrastructure Canada, Aecon Construction Group and CRH Canada that built the 18-stop, 11-kilometre Finch LRT line in northwest Toronto.

Instead of real-time data, apps are forced to rely on scheduled times, "reducing accuracy and transparency, especially during disruptions," the report says.

That means instead of letting riders know LRT vehicles will arrive at their stop in three minutes and 11 minutes, for example, third-party platforms instead tell users what time LRT vehicles have been scheduled to arrive — even if the vehicles are delayed or otherwise operating off-schedule.

The data issue is the latest complication for a transit line that opened in December 2025, years late and billions of dollars over budget.

Metrolinx would not explain how the data-sharing problem arose. A spokesperson said only that "Metrolinx, the TTC and Mosaic are currently working together to determine the most effective way to share real-time LRV arrival and departure data with third-party partners."

The agency did not address several other questions from TorontoToday, including what specific steps are being taken to fix the problem, who is paying to do so, whether any penalties have been levied, and when the work is expected to be complete.

Mosaic did not respond to an interview request.

A TTC spokesperson said "Metrolinx controls the flow of this data" and the "functionality was not part of the original operations contract."

The lack of location data doesn't affect how the TTC responds to service disruptions on the line, the spokesperson said.

"Our operations team has full monitoring capabilities through the signalling and train control systems in our Transit Control Centre," according to the spokesperson. "These data feeds are different, and the firewall you reference is not part of that system and has no impact on our ability to safely operate the system and manage delays."

The TTC report suggests riders could get accurate location data by the fourth quarter of 2026 — October at the earliest.

Critics frustrated with data gap, patchwork system​

A spokesperson for Chow said the mayor agrees the data is important for transit riders and would "look into this further."

Coun. Josh Matlow (Toronto-St. Paul's), who sits on the TTC board, called the data gap "another example of the dysfunctional relationship between Metrolinx and the TTC."

"It's critical that the TTC knows basic information — such as ridership numbers, real-time delays and scheduling issues — so that it can operate the lines effectively," he said. "I don't understand how Metrolinx thinks it's in their interest to be secretive."

Andrew Pulsifer, head of advocacy group TTCriders, said he's "pretty frustrated this wasn't dealt with on day one." He said transit riders shouldn't face a patchwork system where different standards apply to different lines.

The Transit app has partially filled the gap through a crowdsourcing feature that detects when a rider boards a train and shares that information with other users, letting people see whether a train is approaching even without official data.

The app has more than 500,000 monthly users in Toronto, according to Transit app policy lead Stephen Miller. But Miller said he "would much rather have the complete, real-time data from the transit system itself."

 

[A 6264]

Similar occurrence at bus stops with asphalt depressions caused by the heavy buses.
View attachment 723169

Toronto is having to use concrete instead of asphalt to reduce that problem. Wonder if they do allow for replacement tracks at streetcars, light rail, and subways wherever they stop for the same reason?

Back when Islington Station had separate bus bays for each route, they had those same deep ruts, which I presume were created by the buses braking, and the asphalt being kind of "rubbery".

 

[jmi22]

Metrolinx ‘firewall’ blocking Finch LRT location data from transit apps​

From https://www.torontotoday.ca/local/city-hall/metrolinx-firewall-blocking-finch-lrt-location-data-transit-apps-12025338

Locked out of its own data, the TTC admits Google Maps and popular transit apps are forced to rely on inaccurate scheduled times for the Finch West LRT

That's it I'm moving to China!

 

[mikey7767]

That's it I'm moving to China!

One of the most pro-subway countries in the world. Where they understand the importance of speed in transit. Where they aren't handicapped by labour unions.