Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[micheal_can]

The OPP is probably one of the least top heavy organizations given its size and diversity of scope. About 90% of any police service's budget in Ontario is wages and benefits.

What percentage of those wages are not for administrators? It would be nice if it were over 90%.

A little more difficult to define but there are 'cardiac, stroke and vascular care' centres listed for all the northern city hospitals.

Either you do not know about specialized medicine or you think a general ICU is good enough.

CorHealth Ontario

So, your options are the 2 largest cities in Northern ON.
It is not unusual that someone having open heart is In Sudbury from as far away as Hearst. Think of that distance, now pick a hospital in Toronto and drive that far in any other direction. You cannot drive in our province that far, except heading north. So, in winter, how do you expect people to safely travel for things like that? Eventually they have to get home, and that is not provided by the medical system we have. And, no, I am not pushing for rail to Hearst... oh wait... this conversation started on the topic of the ACR. There was a time when Hearst was connected to Sudbury. I can think of several different options. None exist anymore. In a few months, at least part of that way will be able to be done without dealing with the horrible roads.

Of course politics is involved, but I am not convinced that the government has the engineering, design, real estate, project management and fiscal capacity. Nor do I think that industry has the capacity to build it at the rate that the public seems to expect. I'm just going from his social media feeds and some of the comments, but it seems it is just offered as a throw-away solution; 'just twin the highways'. If he is saying that it is only one of the solutions, I'm not seeing it.

Hwy 413 is being fast tracked as golden boy project by this government. Even at that, building this 52 km highway is unofficially expected to take 10 years and cost at least $10bn. To twin both 11 and 17 would involve over 3000 kilometers. Do the math.

I have done the math, easily in the trillions. If not easily over $100 T. It is not getting any cheaper the longer we wait.

I forgot about that part. As far as I was concerned, it was a costly, failed venture. A fleet of aircraft flying to places like Wawa and Hornpayne carrying ones of passengers. In the winter, the number of flights that had to be cancelled due to weather limits for the aircraft and/or airports was significant.

Many of the routes have been taken over by Bearskin.
Point is, the PCs are surprising me, and many of us up here as they started the whole "divesting" that has been going on for 30 years. Maybe this is the start of that being a dirty word in Queen's Park.

 

[CMQSD402F9011]

This is great news!
It makes the viability of the Northlander even better. It also has me thinking that anyone saying that OVR or HCR or other railways won't be bought by the province may need to rethink that stance.

Maybe it’s time for the ONR to buy up the old Chalk River/North Bay subs from the regions/municipalities to relay the tracks back from Mattawa to Smiths Falls

 

[dowlingm]

I knew about this several months ago but was unable to say anything. One of the first clues was the Emergency Notification Sign at the Old Callander Rd. crossing of the new 'bypass' in North Bay said 'mileage x ONR Newmarket Sub'.

I have been told that CN will still operate their daily (ex. Sunday I think) Toronto-North Bay service and that the revenue to the ONR will pay for the purchase price in about 10 years. No information regarding who will switch the few customers along the line and around North Bay. Not that the area is a hotbed of industrial development but it possible that the ONR will be more amenable to low volume customers than CN was if anybody is thinking about it.

I wonder what capital deficits are on that line. Hope I am wrong but I think I remember @smallspy saying some of the track Metrolinx picked up in the GTA had quite a lot of deferred work which had to addressed after the acquisition.

It is quite a statement of intent though. At least if ONR pays for speed upgrades/CTC it will be a public asset rather than a grant to CN.

 

[dowlingm]

Maybe it’s time for the ONR to buy up the old Chalk River/North Bay subs from the regions/municipalities to relay the tracks back from Mattawa to Smiths Falls

They don't own the OVR Sudbury-Mattawa as it is... might want to swallow their current acquisition first before looking to chew on those.

 

[micheal_can]

Maybe it’s time for the ONR to buy up the old Chalk River/North Bay subs from the regions/municipalities to relay the tracks back from Mattawa to Smiths Falls

Honestly, I'd rather they buy up the OVR, HCR and ACR first and get them up to a standard that passenger trains can use the, And, then if they own them,they can work on finding more businesses that would use rail.

This purchase really excites me.

 

[lenaitch]

Many Some of the routes have been taken over by Bearskin.

Mostly in the northwest. None of the communities in the east of Superior/Northeastern Ontario are connected outside of the three cities.

Maybe it’s time for the ONR to buy up the old Chalk River/North Bay subs from the regions/municipalities to relay the tracks back from Mattawa to Smiths Falls

I'm not aware that there is any local municipal ownership in the OVR. It is part of Genesee and Wyoming Canada. In order to buy something, you need a willing seller, and you'd have to ask CPKC.

We wonder what they would use for revenue on a re-laid Mattawa to Smiths Falls route. Are you suggesting it would be a good use of public funds solely for low volume passenger service?

The current in-service section from North Bay to Mattawa and Temiskaming QC relies on one customer. It is either enough to pay for operations or is sufficiently subsidized by the Sudbury - North Bay operations. If the mill in Temiskaming goes down (they have already closed one of their three mills), that portion of the line would be in serious trouble.

Honestly, I'd rather they buy up the OVR, HCR and ACR first and get them up to a standard that passenger trains can use the, And, then if they own them,they can work on finding more businesses that would use rail.

This purchase really excites me.

The question keeps being asked, but what is the financial foundation for these lines in their current state let alone being massively subsidized to improve their condition for reasonable passenger service? ACR is mostly embargoed, HCR has had one major customer close and another getting ready to layoff about 1000 workers.

The grim reality is, northern Ontario (as defined by the government), represents about 90% of the province's landmass but only 6% of the population and 4% of its GDP. The government has a fairly fixed pot of money - our money. I love the north, I live in the north (again) but it can't expect to be treated like the south within crippling government subsidies.

Is there any other country that has hundreds of kilometers of rail that is only used for passenger rail? Does anyone honestly know of an untapped source of income that would support rail and that eludes the current operators?

 

[micheal_can]

The question keeps being asked, but what is the financial foundation for these lines in their current state let alone being massively subsidized to improve their condition for reasonable passenger service? ACR is mostly embargoed, HCR has had one major customer close and another getting ready to layoff about 1000 workers.

The grim reality is, northern Ontario (as defined by the government), represents about 90% of the province's landmass but only 6% of the population and 4% of its GDP. The government has a fairly fixed pot of money - our money. I love the north, I live in the north (again) but it can't expect to be treated like the south within crippling government subsidies.

Is there any other country that has hundreds of kilometers of rail that is only used for passenger rail? Does anyone honestly know of an untapped source of income that would support rail and that eludes the current operators?

I do not think anything should only be used for passenger rail in Northern ON. That is fantasyland for me, but it is not the reality I speak of. The government subsidizes businesses down south all the time.What I am suggesting is that there might be a potential that the ONR's marketing department could find a way to attract businesses that would use rail for their primary mode of transportation. Ironically,some of those businesses could be tourist camps, but, the first steps should be to look at existing businesses along the various lines to see if any would use it. Even if it is a carload a week, that is still one more than before.

As far as why they may not be coming here, it could be that elusive subsidy that gets spent down south that attracts them down south. The best thing that could be done is to spread that subsidy equally throughout the province such that overall it benefits more than just "down south".

 

[Bordercollie]

I knew about this several months ago but was unable to say anything. One of the first clues was the Emergency Notification Sign at the Old Callander Rd. crossing of the new 'bypass' in North Bay said 'mileage x ONR Newmarket Sub'.

I have been told that CN will still operate their daily (ex. Sunday I think) Toronto-North Bay service and that the revenue to the ONR will pay for the purchase price in about 10 years. No information regarding who will switch the few customers along the line and around North Bay. Not that the area is a hotbed of industrial development but it possible that the ONR will be more amenable to low volume customers than CN was if anybody is thinking about it.

There are some customers in Huntsville that CN switches. So would ONR take it over?

 

[CMQSD402F9011]

I'm not aware that there is any local municipal ownership in the OVR. It is part of Genesee and Wyoming Canada. In order to buy something, you need a willing seller, and you'd have to ask CPKC.

We wonder what they would use for revenue on a re-laid Mattawa to Smiths Falls route. Are you suggesting it would be a good use of public funds solely for low volume passenger service?

The current in-service section from North Bay to Mattawa and Temiskaming QC relies on one customer. It is either enough to pay for operations or is sufficiently subsidized by the Sudbury - North Bay operations. If the mill in Temiskaming goes down (they have already closed one of their three mills), that portion of the line would be in serious trouble.

The relaid tracks on the North Bay/Chalk River sub could handle both CN and CPKC traffic bypassing Toronto.

Up until 1990, VIA Rail ran on the North Bay and Chalk River sub from Sudbury to Carleton place when the Mulroney cuts to VIA Rail came in.

 

[reaperexpress]

While we're waiting for the Railway Atlas to update, here's my map showing Ontario Northland's newly-expanded rail network:

With this purchase, the Province now owns 84% of the tracks along the Northlander route:
596 km Ontario Northland (81%)
118 km CN (16%)
26 km Metrolinx (3%)

 

[Bojaxs]

They talked a lot about how this purchase will be good for freight because it means no more switching at North Bay between Northlander and CN. But doesn't this purchase mean they'll just have to performing the switching with CN in Washago? All we're doing is moving the switching operation further south. Not getting rid of it entirely, correct?

 

[Fritter]

I believe switching will still take place in North Bay, as CN will still operate it's current trains to North Bay, but now will pay ONR for the trips it takes. There is very little yard capacity at Washago to complete any transfers.

 

[micheal_can]

While we're waiting for the Railway Atlas to update, here's my map showing Ontario Northland's newly-expanded rail network:
View attachment 721955

With this purchase, the Province now owns 84% of the tracks along the Northlander route:
596 km Ontario Northland (81%)
118 km CN (16%)
26 km Metrolinx (3%)

Could we see the province and possibly the feds pay to double track south of Washago?

I believe switching will still take place in North Bay, as CN will still operate it's current trains to North Bay, but now will pay ONR for the trips it takes. There is very little yard capacity at Washago to complete any transfers.

Would it be worth putting more in to avoid running on CN's line?

 

[lenaitch]

There are some customers in Huntsville that CN switches. So would ONR take it over?

From my post your quoted:

No information regarding who will switch the few customers along the line and around North Bay.

The relaid tracks on the North Bay/Chalk River sub could handle both CN and CPKC traffic bypassing Toronto.

Up until 1990, VIA Rail ran on the North Bay and Chalk River sub from Sudbury to Carleton place when the Mulroney cuts to VIA Rail came in.

Both of which determined they had no need for their Ottawa valley lines and abandoned them. What do you think has changed?

I believe switching will still take place in North Bay, as CN will still operate it's current trains to North Bay, but now will pay ONR for the trips it takes. There is very little yard capacity at Washago to complete any transfers.

As in 'none' since they ripped out a bunch tracks a few years ago. There is a short MOW stub that parallels the Bala sub for a bit.

CN used to run a 'Huntsville turn' switcher for the couple of customers in Huntsville and and Stephan south of Washago. I don't know if they maintained it after Stephan closed. I'm not aware of an other customers on the line. There are a couple of customers in North Bay, Dyno Nobel and Fabrene at the old CIL explosives property which rail served by both CN (now ONR) and OVR. I don't know what trackage is still in service or who switches the customers. This in addition to making/breaking trains in the ONR and OVR yards.

Could we see the province and possibly the feds pay to double track south of Washago?

For two more trains per day (n/b and s/b Northlander)?

 

[OntarioOnTheMove]

CN used to run a 'Huntsville turn' switcher for the couple of customers in Huntsville and and Stephan south of Washago. I don't know if they maintained it after Stephan closed. I'm not aware of an other customers on the line.

CN still operates L595 out of Huntsville. I believe they do Tuesday, Wednesday, and Friday. The current shippers are Kimberly-Clark and Infrapipe in Huntsville, and Panolam in Martins. Stella-Jones is also in South River, but to my understanding, they have been on-again/off-again in terms of shipping by rail.