Monarch Butterfly
Superstar
Your Wednesday reminder that the privatization of our public transit (and the Metrolinx P3 model) is always bad news for transit riders
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Finch West Line 6 LRT
- Thread starter Monarch Butterfly
- Start date
lastcommodore
Active Member
Though I am not happy about this if true and I am not a fan of how many hands are in the basket leading to all the finger pointing of P3s- please let us not act as if TTC is just begging to give us proper GTFS but the big bad meanies at MX won't give it to them. The TTC is notoriously bad at GTFS and does not publish GTFS-RT for any other of its subway routes. (Metrolinx's GTFS, while fine, you need to directly contact them for GTFS-RT and it is not publicly accessible which is also annoying.)
ssiguy2
Senior Member
Transit stop spacing is always a trade-off. Everybody would love to have a stop in front of their door but that, of course, would mean the transit vehicle would be hardly any faster than walking. It's a balancing act between personal convenience and operational necessity,
When building what is suppose to be rapid transit, the stop spacing must increase in order to get people to their destinations faster. People know this and, more importantly, accept it. This is why surveys have shown all around the world that people are willing to take transit and walk further to it if it gets them to a rapid transit/Metro station.
The stops should varying depending upon the local need and demand but, in general, stop spacing on surface routes should AVERAGE about one per 800 meters to one per km especially in lower density areas like Finch. Without this kind of stop spacing, Finch will NEVER be the rapid transit line that was promised to them. Finch should ditch 4 stops and the City has the power to make it so regardless of what the TTC may want although I don't think they would bitch about it.
drum118
Superstar
Got to keep in mind the walking distance from side streets with density or to encourage people to use transit. 500 meters is a good rule of thumb with stops further apart if side streets fail the smell test or don't exist. Only time it should be lest if major transit routes come into play. You need to think about people with walkers, canes, with little children in hand and people who cannot walk at a fast walk like young people.
For me to get to my future LRT stop. it will be an extra 5 minute walk that is over 900 meters from my front door. Current walking distance time is 13 minutes up a hill.
doublemint
New Member
Has anyone times Finch West-Humber College with TSP at every intersection?
Besides that, what, according to the City, still needs to improve for the line to go faster?
Besides that, what, according to the City, still needs to improve for the line to go faster?
ssiguy2
Senior Member
What the difference between walking to your nearest LRT route and walking to the nearest subway? Don't people with strollers, canes, and little kids also live near subway stations? The people along Yonge north of St.Clair manage to do just fine. Also, by your logic, why is stop spacing on the underground part of Eglinton wider than the surface portions? Added to this, TSP is more difficult to implement, the more stops you have and lights you have to contend with.
People already know that rapid transit means a further walk to their stations and are fine with that because they also know that extra time walking will be more than made up by faster travel times. This is exactly the problem with Finch.........still slightly longer walks but they are not getting the speed that should come with it. You can't have local transit that also works as rapid transit. It doesn't work anywhere else on the planet so why Miller & Co thought Toronto would be some form of exception is beyond me.
The people of NW Toronto were promised rapid transit and they should get what they both wanted and were promised and that will be impossible with the number of stations they have now.
drum118
Superstar
I think you need to spend time looking at areas that are not near a subway or a streetcar line to see how riders get to a bus stop to start things off. You need to look at the conditions for all type of weather, the area as well do some timing. This more outside the core of the city.
There are very few areas along any streetcar lines that are effected by a 500 meter spacing considering a lot of stops are less than 500 meters and this applies to bus routes also in various locations in the city.
Its one thing if you line on the street that X run on, but a big different for side streets. I live on a side street with many 20-30 story towers and no houses.
Monarch Butterfly
Superstar
Many of the subdivisions that the 416 built in the 1950's and 1960's had street layouts in cul-de-sacs, crescents, and dead-ends. This was supposed to make the residents "safer", but actually resulted in more automobile traffic needed to go through a maze of streets. For pedestrians, this mean l-o-n-g-e-r walks to the main arterial roads. bus stops, and far flung shopping. Newer subdivisions include short-cut walkways, if the NIMBYs allow for them.
Many of the residential streets still have a l-o-n-g walk maze to get to any LRT stop along Finch Avenue West.
Many of the residential streets still have a l-o-n-g walk maze to get to any LRT stop along Finch Avenue West.
nfitz
Superstar
I grew up in suburbs full of cul-de-sacs in Kingston, much of it 1950s/1960s. Pedestrian short-cuts everywhere. Walking was much faster for some trips.
The concept was hardly new. But this has nothing to do wlth Line 6.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
If the TTC was concerned about providing improved LOCAL transit then it should not have promised to bring RAPID transit to the area whether that be LRT or BRT. They have put up with years of construction, delays, at an ungodly sum of money and they have gotten nothing in return except headaches and longer commutes. Just because a vehicle has steel wheels doesn't make it rapid transit.
People in the NW were promised rapid transit and they are still waiting and this line will never be rapid until they start ditching some of the stations and implement FULL TSP. Full stop. ML, the City, and TTC have lied thru their teeth about this for years about this being a rapid transit line and now the transit dependent {and just so happens a low income area} are being hung out to dry by a bunch of upper level mandarins who have probably never even stepped foot on transit and, if they have their way, never will.
This was suppose to be rapid transit and the citizens and businesses of the area who have suffered years of mayhem to build it, deserve nothing less.
People in the NW were promised rapid transit and they are still waiting and this line will never be rapid until they start ditching some of the stations and implement FULL TSP. Full stop. ML, the City, and TTC have lied thru their teeth about this for years about this being a rapid transit line and now the transit dependent {and just so happens a low income area} are being hung out to dry by a bunch of upper level mandarins who have probably never even stepped foot on transit and, if they have their way, never will.
This was suppose to be rapid transit and the citizens and businesses of the area who have suffered years of mayhem to build it, deserve nothing less.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Regarding the stop spacing, we don't really know what the majority of local riders prefer. A rapid line with a wide stop spacing, and a long walk to a stop for many residents. Or, a line with closer stop spacing, shorter walks, but running slower because of that.
Maybe, a poll amongst the locals is needed. Printed questionnaires sent to randomly selected local mailboxes, plus an online form that can only be submitted when geolocation is enabled and shows your device within 1 km from any point along FWLRT.
Sure, there are ways to bypass those restrictions, but most of people won't bother trying to bypass them, and the outcome will be sufficiently local.
Maybe, a poll amongst the locals is needed. Printed questionnaires sent to randomly selected local mailboxes, plus an online form that can only be submitted when geolocation is enabled and shows your device within 1 km from any point along FWLRT.
Sure, there are ways to bypass those restrictions, but most of people won't bother trying to bypass them, and the outcome will be sufficiently local.
yurt2022
New Member
I rode it just now.
FW is still disgustingly slow. It took me 15-20 minutes to reach Jane from FW stn at that point which I just gave up and turned back because riding this line is actually torture.
TSP will not help until the trains actually drive at 60 KMH between stations.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Good transit priority will help in any scenario, but there is one restriction. An absolute priority for the LRT at major intersections would not only mess up the general cross traffic, it would mess up busy bus routes like Jane, Islington, Kipling. LRT riders benefit, bus riders suffer from longer trips and poorly spaced headways. I don't think this is desirable.
Thus, yes to predictive transit-phase management in favour of LRT; no to absolute priority in such cases.
At minor intersections, where cross traffic is lighter, and there are either no bus routes or there is an infrequent bus branch, absolute LRT priority is possible.
Thus, yes to predictive transit-phase management in favour of LRT; no to absolute priority in such cases.
At minor intersections, where cross traffic is lighter, and there are either no bus routes or there is an infrequent bus branch, absolute LRT priority is possible.
EnviroTO
Senior Member
It was already known that the issue on Finch wasn't related to signal priority because as was documented the buses that ran on Finch previously without transit priority was way faster. On Eglinton the transit priority will make a difference because the vehicles themselves were running on the line quickly and then at times getting stuck at lights. On Finch the transit priority may make a difference... but it is the difference between abysmal and very bad.
T3G
Senior Member
[citation needed]