Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)

[north-of-anything]

Alto high-speed rail: Protesters in Hawkesbury oppose train https://share.google/aj0mFXYGGvu9p6c0m

The land that they need is such a small corridor. People imagine it to be some huge concrete structure.

Compared to building a highway, this is much less Intrusive.

Yeah but they can't drive their coal-rolling, dirt-free pickup trucks with obnoxious political bumper stickers on high speed train tracks.

 

[ownthesky]

Here comes the CPC attack dogs. Ryan Williams is now stating that Alto will be 300% over budget, citing the Ottawa LRT.


I questioned him on Facebook and essentially his argument seems to be that CN is forced to transport too much oil, so if we build a new pipeline to the East coast, CN will be obliged to speed up service for VIA, and therefore we don't need high speed rail. It felt like a comedy skit from This Hour Has 22 Minutes - of course, for the CPC, everything can be solved by building another pipeline! Ryan is also famous for demanding the resignation of VIA executives due to poor service to the Bay Of Quinte, but has literally never said a word about the fright companies role in VIA's poor service.

 

[David_Brown]

I live in Tweed, and work in Marmora. Everyone is talking about ALTO. . They had an open house in Madoc, and apparently it was packed.

 

[picard102]

Here comes the CPC attack dogs. Ryan Williams is now stating that Alto will be 300% over budget, citing the Ottawa LRT.

Okay... and? If it was 500% over budget just build the damn thing already.

 

[Bordercollie]

If one googles the term "ballast flight" one finds lots of studies and professional papers documenting that high speed trains exert dynamic forces on the trackbed. That's pretty understandable considering the basic rules of aerodynamics (which I don't pretend to understand) and the reality that the underside of a high speed train can only be streamlined so much thanks to needing to have bogies and wheels sticking out downwards,

A major concern is not so much flying stones hitting things as general loosening of the roadbed and deterioration of the ballast..

It's pretty obvious that there is no "right" or "wrong" here. Some operators have found other design strategies while some rely on other types of roadbed, some are content to stick with rock ballast, or some altered form of such.

Which solution Alto chooses is yet to be seen, but we can be sure that their engineers will consider this issue and make decisions.

We may all have our opinions, but there is lots of middle ground here. Arguing "is" vs "is not" is a bit pedantic,

- Paul

The Chinese didn't use ballast for their HSR and they found it difficult to repair, resulting in vibrations being felt by customers. With ballast you can use a tamper to adjust the rocks and make the track straight but when the tracks are bolted into the concrete it's harder to make minute adjustments.
Ballastless (Slab) Track Defects
To handle 350+ km/h speeds, China widely adopted CRTS I, II, and III slab tracks. However, after 10+ years of operation, these have shown significant degradation:
Oxford Academic
Oxford Academic
+4
Debonding and Cracking: The most critical defects include the separation (debonding) between the prefabricated track slab and the cement-emulsified asphalt (CA) mortar layer, as well as concrete cracking.
Mud-Pumping: Rainwater infiltration leads to the base sinking, causing mud-pumping (soil/water mixture forced up) and compromising the stability of the track.
Environmental Stress: In cold regions, significant issues with "high-temperature camber and low-temperature fracture" (deformation caused by extreme temperature variations) have occurred.
Transition Zone Issues: Uneven deformation between bridge-subgrade transition sections has caused significant riding comfort and safety issues.

 

[Urban Sky]

Okay... and? If it was 500% over budget just build the damn thing already.

Thank god, funding decisions are not made by members in this forum! HSR is a necessity in the medium-to-long run, but there certainly is a price tag limit where giving the project the green light (and government funding) stops making any sense…

 

[micheal_can]

I live in Tweed, and work in Marmora. Everyone is talking about ALTO. . They had an open house in Madoc, and apparently it was packed.

What was the general attitude of the citizens?

 

[David_Brown]

What was the general attitude of the citizens?

100% against it.

 

[Bordercollie]

100% against it.

Lol. This is a perfect example of how people don't understand the benefits of good public transportation systems because everyone who doesn't live in an urban area drives their cars everywhere.

 

[Urban Sky]

Lol. This is a perfect example of how people don't understand the benefits of good public transportation systems because everyone who doesn't live in an urban area drives their cars everywhere.

I’d rather argue that ALTO/Cadence is a perfect example for that you can’t build support amongst the affected communities without treating them as partners and making meaningful concessions. Telling communities that the final route will be decided in a few months while leaving the residents guessing in the dark about who might be the unlucky ones loosing their houses is just a blatant disrespect of local residents and the best way to mobilize opposition.

I’m currently working on a people mover project in the United States linking an airport with a seaport and a convention center and it was very striking to me how the project leaders were talking about the need to also make the project useful for local residents, as their buy-in would be crucial to avoid attracting local protests and lawsuits…

 

[micheal_can]

I’d rather argue that ALTO/Cadence is a perfect example for that you can’t build support amongst the affected communities without treating them as partners and making meaningful concessions. Telling communities that the final route will be decided in a few months while leaving the residents guessing in the dark about who might be the unlucky ones loosing their houses is just a blatant disrespect of local residents and the best way to mobilize opposition.

I’m currently working on a people mover project in the United States linking an airport with a seaport and a convention center and it was very striking to me how the project leaders were talking about the need to also make the project useful for local residents, as their buy-in would be crucial to avoid attracting local protests and lawsuits…

How would ALTO have better done this to have those small communities that will not have an ALTO stop support it?

 

[David_Brown]

I lived in Korea for 13 years, so I get how transformative high speed rail can be. It’s great. But I also get why locals here are upset. They aren’t going to benefit from ALTO. Public transportation is somewhat meaningless when you live in rural areas where owning a car is the only option.

 

[generalcanada]

I’d rather argue that ALTO/Cadence is a perfect example for that you can’t build support amongst the affected communities without treating them as partners and making meaningful concessions. Telling communities that the final route will be decided in a few months while leaving the residents guessing in the dark about who might be the unlucky ones loosing their houses is just a blatant disrespect of local residents and the best way to mobilize opposition.

I’m currently working on a people mover project in the United States linking an airport with a seaport and a convention center and it was very striking to me how the project leaders were talking about the need to also make the project useful for local residents, as their buy-in would be crucial to avoid attracting local protests and lawsuits…

i mean thats 2 different things. local public transport inside the city is way differnt than hsr that skips full cities
How do you "make the project useful" on cities it skips entirely and has no stops. best case scenario is telling them to kick rocks when they ask for a station

 

[ownthesky]

Lol. This is a perfect example of how people don't understand the benefits of good public transportation systems because everyone who doesn't live in an urban area drives their cars everywhere.

You think the people of Madoc view a train they'll never ride as public transportation?

 

[MisterF]

I love how rural residents are so concerned about how a new rail line will impact wildlife and nature but aren't bothered in the slightest about the network of roads and highways they use every day that does so much more damage than a railway ever could. Or that by reducing reliance on driving, Alto might actually reduce those impacts.

In any case, some HSR stops in small towns or even rural areas do exist in other HSR systems where, of course, only some trains stop while others go through at full speed. Opportunities for these kinds of stops may exist on the Alto route but that will never satisfy the rural opposition. Opposition will always exist and the media will play it up no matter how carefully you design the line to minimize impact. At the end of the day you have to recognize that you'll never make everyone happy and not let the project get bogged down.