Parliament Streetcar

[lastcommodore]

Loops eats up very expensive land and squeal while going the looping regardless if its duel or single end tram.

To be a bit more verbose i was responding to McGillicuddy's point that you would have to rebuild loops into crossovers and in the meantime have two incompatible systems (loop termini and crossover termini)... Unless there is something I seriously misunderstand, bidi trams can operate on existing, looped routes aready, however uni trams could not operate on crossover routes. So there would not be two, incompatible fleets, as bidi trams can run on the whole network- though ideally more of the network is turned into crossovers

That’s a whole system reset,

I really dont see why? Its not as if bidi flexities dont exist, like ION. A retrofit would not even be necessary in the short term (although i dont see why it wouldnt be possible), you simply order a fleet of Flexity bidis that can be run in newer crossover loops. Its the same rolling stock, no new training needed for operators or mechanics

 

[reaperexpress]

That’s a whole system reset, and given that each successive TTC streetcar series operates for about forty or more years (for example, the CLRV ran from 1979 to 2019), any bi-directional streetcar service to Castlefrank wouldn’t have a vehicle until the 2060s.

In the hypothetical scenario where a Parliament Streetcar is created, the TTC will need to buy new streetcars to run it. We will not have spare Flexities lying around by that point.

We're talking years or decades in the future, by which point the Flexity Outlook design will be decades old. It doesn't seem unreasonable to start thinking about the next generation of Toronto streetcar.

Instead, why not reinstate the original Parliament St. loop and install a pedestrian tunnel under Bloor to the station?

Because it's more expensive and worse for customers.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

You don't. You walk to the other end of the streetcar and drive from that end.

Bidirectional streetcars make sense for any future streetcar for any route, not just this single route. By converting to bidirectional vehicles we can free up a lot of land occupied by loops, and there can be many more turnback or single-track options when all it takes is a crossover. More turnback or switching options means less impact from service disruptions.

If track construction (like during a water main break) needs to be done, temporary crossover tracks can be put in.

 

[nfitz]

We do not have spare Flexities lying around.

They certainly do right now. Currently there's never more than 160 (closer to 155) of 260+ streetcars running.

Not that this is ever likely to happen. Despite the phenomenal growth in the 65 Parliament ridership.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Probably more realistic to merge it with the Transit Fantasy one https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/transit-fantasy-maps.3005/page-436#post-2347232

Oh yes but I mean the actual project lol, the east bayfront LRT and this should be a "phase 2" of that.

 

[reaperexpress]

They certainly do right now. Currently there's never more than 160 (closer to 155) of 260+ streetcars running.

Not that this is ever likely to happen. Despite the phenomenal growth in the 65 Parliament ridership.

But aren't most of those streetcars accounted for with expansions like Waterfront East?

 

[nfitz]

But aren't most of those streetcars accounted for with expansions like Waterfront East?

Some. And some if they ever restore 6-minute service like they promised.

The 4-km long 65 Parliament currently attains an 8- to 9-miinute frequency with only 6 buses, from Castle Frank to near Jarvis and Queens Quay. These aren't long routes.

More feasibly one could just connect to the new Corktown subway station on Parliament by streetcar to Queens Quay, and change the 65 back to it's old route, so it just runs between Esplanade and Castle Frank. This might solve the Waterfront East/Union Station conundrum.

I'm not sure why the very short distance (about 700 metres) on Parliament from King to Queens Quay wasn't a key part of the Waterfront East LRT. It's about the same distance from Corktown station to Queens Quay as the TTC Union station to Queens Quay.

 

[doady]

A 4km route having 8-9 minute frequency is amazing. Usually such short routes can only act as feeder, not very useful. This obviously not a minor route, extend it beyond 4km and ridership will skyrocket, whether bus or streetcar.

 

[Jonny5]

I'm not sure why the very short distance (about 700 metres) on Parliament from King to Queens Quay wasn't a key part of the Waterfront East LRT. It's about the same distance from Corktown station to Queens Quay as the TTC Union station to Queens Quay.

I imagine some of this was due to planning in the 2010's for the DRL to be across Queen East, and there was an expectation to have the classic split bus routes from stations there. I don't recall if they got as far as finalising the station locations, but if they had Sherbourne, they might have planned for Parliament or maybe River before jumping over to Broadview.

 

[drum118]

Some. And some if they ever restore 6-minute service like they promised.

The 4-km long 65 Parliament currently attains an 8- to 9-miinute frequency with only 6 buses, from Castle Frank to near Jarvis and Queens Quay. These aren't long routes.

More feasibly one could just connect to the new Corktown subway station on Parliament by streetcar to Queens Quay, and change the 65 back to it's old route, so it just runs between Esplanade and Castle Frank. This might solve the Waterfront East/Union Station conundrum.

I'm not sure why the very short distance (about 700 metres) on Parliament from King to Queens Quay wasn't a key part of the Waterfront East LRT. It's about the same distance from Corktown station to Queens Quay as the TTC Union station to Queens Quay.

The reason why it wasn't a key part of Waterfront QQE. it was outside our scoop area regardless how many times we requested it and other lines should be in the master planning. A good example of not looking at the big picture for the network. It was raised a few times during the review of the waterfront transit plan especially when Line 3 surface, but were told outside our scoop and the OL stations were in walking distance of the route.

 

[DSCToronto]

The reason why it wasn't a key part of Waterfront QQE. it was outside our scoop area regardless how many times we requested it and other lines should be in the master planning. A good example of not looking at the big picture for the network. It was raised a few times during the review of the waterfront transit plan especially when Line 3 surface, but were told outside our scoop and the OL stations were in walking distance of the route.

Yes, I too was involved in the earlier TTC and WT discussions and they were VERY reluctant to do anything on Parliament Street, even though there was still the old streetcar loop available at Parliament and Front. Of course, these early discussions were before there was any talk of the Ontario Line and, until that occurred, the idea of an interchange at that intersection (or King & Parliament) seemed bizarre.

 

[drum118]

Yes, I too was involved in the earlier TTC and WT discussions and they were VERY reluctant to do anything on Parliament Street, even though there was still the old streetcar loop available at Parliament and Front. Of course, these early discussions were before there was any talk of the Ontario Line and, until that occurred, the idea of an interchange at that intersection (or King & Parliament) seemed bizarre.

Even after the OL was in play, there were suggestions that the Parliament line interline will QQE or have a loop next to it and rejected by TTC.

Even the Kipling line which is on TTC books as well the Queensway extension to Sherway was rejected by TTC as been out of our scoop during the review of all waterfront plan lines.

Who will be around to ride any new lines at the rate things have been going the last 15-20 years??

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

The Corktown Station on the Ontario Line 3 could feed the Parliament streetcar, or the Parliament streetcar could feed the Ontario Line 3 at Corktown Station.

 

[lastcommodore]

The Corktown Station on the Ontario Line 3 could feed the Parliament streetcar, or the Parliament streetcar could feed the Ontario Line 3 at Corktown Station.

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This actually reminds me. I feel like it would be better for a parliament streetcar to actually run not along the Harbourfront to Union but to the Donlands redevelopment. It would serve that whole community as a direct connection to the OL, granted that we aren't building a Cherry stn.