lenaitch
Senior Member
I find that extremely hard to believe, considering both study corridors are several kilometers wide.
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Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)
- Thread starter innsertnamehere
- Start date
micheal_can
Senior Member
I am thinking that is after the route is decided, and the actual corridor is laid out. Not the several km wide study area.
lenaitch
Senior Member
The how could you have heard that it only had 41 properties?
micheal_can
Senior Member
Due to the large size of those properties? Maybe the routes have been determined and they are looking for public conflicts before they release the routes.
lenaitch
Senior Member
Maybe your "I have heard" source is wrong.
crs1026
Superstar
I wouldn't dispute any of their technical conclusions. But the report moves directly to some very strong advocacy, where the less partisan path forward would be to present the data and let it register along with other considerations.
The need for time consuming and expensive blasting into hard rock is certainly credible - but - unknowns that could tip the scale, and that need to be compared and contribute to an overall decision
- amount and cost of land acquisition - some harder data
- number and scale of grade separations and structures over water or wetland
- more detailed actual construction quantities and costs for all aspects, including fills, cuts and blasting
- comparative ease of meeting environmental needs, wildlife pathways, etc
- comparative operability - length, total curvature, total rise and fall over the route
I tend to agree that the northern route has some very strong advantages, in geology and in other aspects. If I were betting today, I would bet on the northern route as the one that will prevail. But that doesn't mean this one study should immediately bring us to an end conclusion. I think they are overselling their facts, as valid as those facts may be. As a matter of process for reaching a balanced and objective decision, we need more data than this in the picture.
- Paul
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Mihairokov
Senior Member
It seems like a waste of time for both those boarding in Kingston and those travelling through. If we're also looking at additional stops like Belleville, Napanee, etc. in the same vein then this service will hardly be better for anyone than current day VIA service. ALTO needs to be a significant enough upgrade over VIA to warrant ridership - if it's just mirroring that service further north but with more difficult to reach stations it will be a failure for all passengers.
I travel Toronto <-> Ottawa pretty often and sometimes that's by train and sometimes that's by air. The train does take a while to get into Ottawa but it saves me from having to take a 30 minute, $40 Uber from YOW. ALTO needs to be doing something that improves service rather than equalling or worsening what we already have.
AJhyett
New Member
Building a HSR line is primarily a material handling exersize. around 50Million tons of material will be moved. The clever way to do this is to design the cut/fill balance so that material from high points can be locally used to create embankments in low points. The concrete slab (if used instead of ballast -unlikely) is a tiny proportion as are the ties(https://www.vossloh.com/en/products/high-speed-rail-ties) . Local re-use is one of the big takeaways from HS2. Why HS2? HS2 is the closest analog (culturally and economically). China's experience with a railway that is $839B in debt is not a good economic comparison - the early high population density lines are the only econically viable routes. Maintenace cost across the network= $200,000/km/annum. California HSR is too bably flawed, even by ALTO standards. TGV was 50 years back in time. Spain HSR doing a bit of a rethink recently Please suggest a better analog.Very detailed website here by some folks advocating for the Northern route.
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If you scroll down you can see a deck they put together.
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Some of the key slides:
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I don't really get why the Schabas quote is included because I thought he supported the southern route:
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They seem to think this is the Candence alignment for the northern route:
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micheal_can
Senior Member
Very possible. Mind you, everything they have said, besides this has been confirmed by many others in this discussion. What is more likely is I heard wrong. Could be 41 homes, or something along those lines. The good thing is, once the plan is released, we may learn exactly what is meant.
kEiThZ
Superstar
I want the Northern Route. To avoid NIMBYs, have a shorter route and to permanently rule out diversions to places like Kingston. And we will get people in Kingston hating the NIMBYs around them for a long time. Win-Win.
christine
New Member
Was that 41 if they use the same hover tech as Back to the Future 2 & 3? I know theres a lot of people talking about elevated transit these days and you can't get any more elevated than that.
micheal_can
Senior Member
No, it was regular HSR trains and tracks.
generalcanada
Senior Member
Sondage sur le corridor Québec–Toronto | Oui au TGV, mais sans trop payer
Tout le monde veut un train à grande vitesse entre Québec et Toronto, mais c’est une autre histoire s’il faut casser sa tirelire pour monter à bord. En moyenne, les usagers sont prêts à payer à peine 20 $ de plus que les tarifs actuels de VIA Rail, d’après une équipe de chercheurs à l’Université...
www.lapresse.ca
they did their own calculation saying there will only be 10 million riders instead of 25 million in 2050
crs1026
Superstar
apperently a mcgill study interviewed people who said theyd only pay $20 more than current fares to ride hsr.Sondage sur le corridor Québec–Toronto | Oui au TGV, mais sans trop payer
Tout le monde veut un train à grande vitesse entre Québec et Toronto, mais c’est une autre histoire s’il faut casser sa tirelire pour monter à bord. En moyenne, les usagers sont prêts à payer à peine 20 $ de plus que les tarifs actuels de VIA Rail, d’après une équipe de chercheurs à l’Université...
they did their own calculation saying there will only be 10 million riders instead of 25 million in 2050
This is going to be the most fascinating part of the project to watch.... far more than the route decision or the equipment procurement or the actual construction. .
The prevailing theory is that (similar to say airports) users will pay the operating costs and some form of rate of return to investors. Whether the capital investment is mostly held as equity by investors, or simply provided by the taxpayer, is less clear.
And the prevailing assumption is that the price point will consider a comparison to air fares and try to maximise revenue as a direct competitor to air travel taking into consideration the whole envelope of ticket price, utility of time, and convenience, and considering that the air market is somewhat supported by business travel.
All of that implies that Alto will be pricey.
The problem is that if Alto does become broadly popular, there will be political pressure to make it a peoples' train, and complaints that "fares are not affordable for the average guy" will override all that theory.
Anyone in Ontario who has watched the pricing of Union Pearson, or auto licensing fees and user charges, or hydro bills, or beer, knows where this is heading. Government will feel pressure to lower the fares, likely by offering subsidies. Can't wait to see how that turns out.
- Paul
micheal_can
Senior Member
What is the current rate for a flight between Toronto and Montreal for economy and first class? What about Via for Economy and business? For Via, IIRC it was about $75 and $150.Quick Google search says somewhere between $200-$350 depending on air carrier. I would guess it would be close to the airfare ticket prices. This is why speed is a real factor. You get door to door in a comparable time, then the question becomes convenience. Do you need to go through security? Are you closer to where your arrival and destination is? Is there good parking and transit options? All of these and more will play into how popular ALTO will be.apperently a mcgill study interviewed people who said theyd only pay $20 more than current fares to ride hsr.Sondage sur le corridor Québec–Toronto | Oui au TGV, mais sans trop payer
Tout le monde veut un train à grande vitesse entre Québec et Toronto, mais c’est une autre histoire s’il faut casser sa tirelire pour monter à bord. En moyenne, les usagers sont prêts à payer à peine 20 $ de plus que les tarifs actuels de VIA Rail, d’après une équipe de chercheurs à l’Université...
they did their own calculation saying there will only be 10 million riders instead of 25 million in 2050