Finch West Line 6 LRT

[lastcommodore]

How can LRT in its own ROW be slower than buses in mixed traffic?

Identify a list of reasons and provide solutions for each item on the list.

None of the solutions will be easy but this is critical for the success of both Lines 6 and the future Line 10. Surely, it is not just the vehicles.

As an Ottawa, I am p*ssed about these trains but I am hopeful for the long-term future.

This is a cautionary tale of operating LRVs as trams in the 21st century. There needs to be grade separation or just use the improved ROW for BRT.

Because a ROW is only useful when there is traffic congestion. When there is no congestion, there is very little benefit to a ROW over mixed traffic. You can see this from Steve Munros analysis of 6's speeds.

The ROW shows its consistency during the most congested times, but because there's not really a benefit to a ROW > Mixed traffic in very early/late hours, the benefits disappear.

As for how the LRT is slower than the bus on off-peak hours... It's really all down to operations, right now. TTC is much more hands off with bus operator driving vs. LRT/Streetcar operators, and they're drilled to drive slooooww and with insane speed restrictions. The LRTs speed up much slower, coast much slower, and drive thru intersections and stations with incredibly low speeds.

The unfortunate truth is that grade separation, alone, would change nearly nothing. It would reduce time spent at red lights but it would still end up quite slow than even some other tram systems worldwide, because the TTC is just a very slow operator. From what I have heard from TTC operators, even line 5 is only allowed to operate much faster because of the intrusion system detection, and would have received the same slow orders at stns if it was disabled.

 

[CapitalSeven]

It is too tight, for the Citadis Spirits.

That curve is not technically "too tight" for the vehicles as they are designed. It's a lot tighter than any of the curves in Ottawa's line 1, but there are several curves with a similar radius in the MSF and presumably they go through it every day. The problem is with the horribly mis-designed axles/bogies/whatevers. The result is that Ottawa's trains are crawling at 20 kph or so around curves that should be good for 50 or more. I spent 3 weeks in Bangkok and observed the Skytrain whipping around considerably tighter curves without even slowing from 50 or so. The problem isn't the design of either Toronto's or Ottawa's system, it's Alstom's failure to build a wheel assembly that does what many other trains have done for years. Yes there are challenges with fitting that to low floors, but that's why they earn the big bucks.

 

[lrt's friend]

That curve is not technically "too tight" for the vehicles as they are designed. It's a lot tighter than any of the curves in Ottawa's line 1, but there are several curves with a similar radius in the MSF and presumably they go through it every day. The problem is with the horribly mis-designed axles/bogies/whatevers. The result is that Ottawa's trains are crawling at 20 kph or so around curves that should be good for 50 or more. I spent 3 weeks in Bangkok and observed the Skytrain whipping around considerably tighter curves without even slowing from 50 or so. The problem isn't the design of either Toronto's or Ottawa's system, it's Alstom's failure to build a wheel assembly that does what many other trains have done for years. Yes there are challenges with fitting that to low floors, but that's why they earn the big bucks.

Yep, it is shocking how slow Line 1 runs in Ottawa in the area of Hurdman and the VIA Station. These are so-called 'temporary go slow orders' which I have complained about and got ridiculed. Be patient, I was told. The temporary orders are now in place for years. Bicycles can go faster and this is not the only location that trains run ridiculously slow in Ottawa. Elsewhere, it is track design that is clearly at fault.

You don't have to go as far as Bangkok or even Vancouver to see better performance. Just go to Montreal, and ride the REM going south out of Gare Centrale. There are similar curves as in Ottawa, but the trains run faster and more smoothly around those curves.

It is taking years to engineer better wheel assemblies for the Citadis Spirit trains. With the potential market in North America for these trains, you would think that there would be more urgency to correct the problem. There is continuous bad press coming out of Ottawa for this train model.

Nevertheless, isn't the slow speed of Line 6 also related to self-imposed speed limits? Is there a fear of severe liability potential from catastrophic collisions at unprotected intersections as result of red light runners? This was a major problem when the Rapibus transitway was first opened in Gatineau. People were constantly making illegal turns and being hit by buses. There are a lot of bad drivers out there.
'

 

[Obsidian]

Because a ROW is only useful when there is traffic congestion. When there is no congestion, there is very little benefit to a ROW over mixed traffic. You can see this from Steve Munros analysis of 6's speeds.

View attachment 715258
The ROW shows its consistency during the most congested times, but because there's not really a benefit to a ROW > Mixed traffic in very early/late hours, the benefits disappear.

As for how the LRT is slower than the bus on off-peak hours... It's really all down to operations, right now. TTC is much more hands off with bus operator driving vs. LRT/Streetcar operators, and they're drilled to drive slooooww and with insane speed restrictions. The LRTs speed up much slower, coast much slower, and drive thru intersections and stations with incredibly low speeds.

The unfortunate truth is that grade separation, alone, would change nearly nothing. It would reduce time spent at red lights but it would still end up quite slow than even some other tram systems worldwide, because the TTC is just a very slow operator. From what I have heard from TTC operators, even line 5 is only allowed to operate much faster because of the intrusion system detection, and would have received the same slow orders at stns if it was disabled.

Based on these charts getting the LRT down to 40 minutes would be a significant improve from the bus at most time

 

[nfitz]

Based on these charts getting the LRT down to 40 minutes would be a significant improve from the bus at most time

From 8:30 AM to 6:30 PM it already looks faster on LRT, 6 days a week.

That chart should be updated now that they've improved the LRT service from 46 minutes to 44 minutes. I wonder what the timeframe is to drop it to 38 minutes, and if they can get it close to the original 33 once the TPS and wheel issues are resolved.

 

[ssiguy2]

I remember saying YEARS ago that I didn't see the advantage of this line being LRT as opposed to a BRT and seems I was right. There is nothing this line can do that a proper BRT couldn't at a fraction of the price and vastly shorter building time with much less construction mayhem. Bus-only lanes where possible and where not, que-jumping lanes, can work wonders along with wider station spacing. This combined with cleaner, quieter, and faster accelerating electric buses would have provided a much better and more reliable service than the crate you have now.

Curious........is Mosaic having to compensate the TTC for having to run extra buses due to these endless breakdowns? What about penalties for Alstom for delivering inferior vehicles?

 

[asey20]

From 8:30 AM to 6:30 PM it already looks faster on LRT, 6 days a week.

That chart should be updated now that they've improved the LRT service from 46 minutes to 44 minutes. I wonder what the timeframe is to drop it to 38 minutes, and if they can get it close to the original 33 once the TPS and wheel issues are resolved.

There is a "full" ride video from February 4th at 1:41 PM on youtube where the uploader stated that the ride took 40 minutes and 25 seconds in the comments section. That does appear to be quite the improvement already if true, so I would imagine 33-38 minutes is probably possible. If that is the case, then I would expect this line will end up being a success once all the hiccups get resolved.

 

[lastcommodore]

I remember saying YEARS ago that I didn't see the advantage of this line being LRT as opposed to a BRT and seems I was right. There is nothing this line can do that a proper BRT couldn't at a fraction of the price and vastly shorter building time with much less construction mayhem. Bus-only lanes where possible and where not, que-jumping lanes, can work wonders along with wider station spacing. This combined with cleaner, quieter, and faster accelerating electric buses would have provided a much better and more reliable service than the crate you have now.

Curious........is Mosaic having to compensate the TTC for having to run extra buses due to these endless breakdowns? What about penalties for Alstom for delivering inferior vehicles?

Materially, there's not many cases where tram is needed over BRT. I'd reckon the 6FW setup can 2-3x BRT capacity, but frankly I don't know if that capacity is truly needed. but the primary benefits of trams are not in carrying more passengers or speed, it's really more about the soft benefits. Trams appear more "solid" in existence unlike BRT and we can argue about whether that's true or not but that is the conception. Additionally it is more comfortable and more spacious. It may materially be similar but results wise trams bring more passengers and economic benefits over the exact same thing but a bus.

As for penalties... All's in the contract that nobody knows. Transparent as a brick wall.

 

[Bojaxs]

That curve is not technically "too tight" for the vehicles as they are designed. It's a lot tighter than any of the curves in Ottawa's line 1, but there are several curves with a similar radius in the MSF and presumably they go through it every day. The problem is with the horribly mis-designed axles/bogies/whatevers. The result is that Ottawa's trains are crawling at 20 kph or so around curves that should be good for 50 or more. I spent 3 weeks in Bangkok and observed the Skytrain whipping around considerably tighter curves without even slowing from 50 or so. The problem isn't the design of either Toronto's or Ottawa's system, it's Alstom's failure to build a wheel assembly that does what many other trains have done for years. Yes there are challenges with fitting that to low floors, but that's why they earn the big bucks.

Alstom didn't want to make the Citadis Spirit. They advised against it, but Ottawa City Council wouldn't listen and insisted on a train that was low to the ground while operating as a Metro. Alstom warned them that no such train had ever been built before.

This is probably why Alstom is less than enthusiastic about trying to fix the bogie/ axel issue because they warned Ottawa that this train wouldn't work.

The problem with Line 1/ Confederation line in Ottawa is that it's using the wrong rolling stock. There's no reason why the line shouldn't have the same trains as the REM in Montreal.

Alstom Metropolis Saint-Laurent - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Alstom Metropolis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Obsidian]

Alstom didn't want to make the Citadis Spirit. They advised against it, but Ottawa City Council wouldn't listen and insisted on a train that was low to the ground while operating as a Metro. Alstom warned them that no such train had ever been built before.

This is probably why Alstom is less than enthusiastic about trying to fix the bogie/ axel issue because they warned Ottawa that this train wouldn't work.

The problem with Line 1/ Confederation line in Ottawa is that it's using the wrong rolling stock. There's no reason why the line shouldn't have the same trains as the REM in Montreal.

Alstom Metropolis Saint-Laurent - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Alstom Metropolis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

No one from the TTC or metrolinx have complained about the trains so i think we should drop it as a cause for the slow operation of the line.

 

[Bojaxs]

No one from the TTC or metrolinx have complained about the trains so i think we should drop it as a cause for the slow operation of the line.

Is this sarcasm????

 

[Obsidian]

Is this sarcasm????

Where have either the TTC or Metrolinx blamed the vehicles for slow operations on Finch??

 

[Bojaxs]

Where have either the TTC or Metrolinx blamed the vehicles for slow operations on Finch??

I mean, that's part of the problem, isn't it?

They don't want to acknowledge there are issues with the trains.

I'm sure behind closed doors and during private phone calls they discuss all the issues with the trains. They just don't talk about them publicly.

I would imagine most politicians would find it embarrassing to admit they selected the wrong rolling stock/ train for the job. Akin to admitting you bet everything on the wrong horse.

 

[Obsidian]

I mean, that's part of the problem, isn't it?

They don't want to acknowledge there are issues with the trains.

I'm sure behind closed doors and during private phone calls they discuss all the issues with the trains. They just don't talk about them publicly.

I would imagine most politicians would find it embarrassing to admit they selected the wrong rolling stock/ train for the job. Akin to admitting you bet everything on the wrong horse.

The TTC would have no problem throwing metrolinx under the bus if it was the vehicles that were having the problem. but they have not said anything bad about the vehicles but they have mentioned about other infrastructure and maintenance problems.

On The Eglinton Line the TTC did mention that they were having problems with the emergency brakes on the Line 5 vehicles for an example. but have never mentioned anything wrong with the line 6 vehicles. With all the finger pointing going on from Metrolinx, the TTC and Mosaic Transit Group, none of them have pointed a finger at the vehicle or the vehicle manufacturer. It would be in all 3 organization interest to blame the vehicle manufacturer after all if the vehicles were giving problems, but they have all blamed problems on other issues.

Since none of them have even hinted about a vehicle defect that leads me to believe they are operating fine.

I would say that the line was rushed into service without enough testing like on line 5 is the main reason for it slow operations.

 

[FW36]

On Saturday Feb 14 I rode finch west LRT from Finch West Station to Albion at 8pm. It took 33 minutes to complete the trip and that was even with the LRT dwelling at Duncanwoods Station for 2 minutes and getting stuck behind some red lights.