EnviroTO
Senior Member
Are you sure? The TTC expanded its order of Flexity Outlooks after the purchase. I would assume that Alstom has the rights to continue to build them and the Thunder Bay and Kingston operations still exist do they not?
|
|
|
Finch West Line 6 LRT
- Thread starter Monarch Butterfly
- Start date
jordanmkasla2009
Active Member
The TTC order was an exercised option that existed in the initial order contract. Alstom still has a few contracts that have options left for the Flexities but other than those Alstom has no incentive to keep making the Flexity line in North America, even if it is proving to be superior.
nfitz
Superstar
True - but the 2020 add on of 17 streetcars (with an option of 47 more at the same pricing that TTC took up in 2021) was year after the timeframe for the original options had expired - and thus was done at new, significantly higher, pricing. I"m not sure Bombardier was still required to accept the option - but they and the union were campaigning heavily to get it.
Based on the Citadis crap, I'd say there's a huge incentive to offering the cheaper Flexity vehicles - because I don't seeing Citadis ever winning an open competition again in Ontario (assuming the Ottawa competition was open).
I'm not sure if there'd be Flexity options left for Metrolinx. Metrolinx's Flexity order was actually an option of the original TTC order. The history is that in 2009 TTC awarded Bombardier with a contract for 204 Flexity cars, with an option for 400 more. But later TTC transferred 300 of those option cars to Metrolinx (and in 2020 used of 60 of their remaning 100 options).
Metrolinx then used these options ordered 182 cars for Lines 3, 5, 6, and 7. Presumably they have 118 cars left (minus some they optioned to Waterloo, but after Metrolinx in 2016 cancelled Bombardier's contract for 106 of these cars (Line 3, 6, and 7) - and then lost the lawsuit against Bombardier, then who knows what's left of those options. In December 2017 Metrolinx settled with Bombardier, and I assume that the optional cars are a confidential settlement document. My guess is that Metrolinx would have to start from scratch.
Though by this stage of the Line 5 extension to Renforth - which I believe they announced almost 7 years ago - they surely know what the new cars are going to be. There's no indication that these are part of the 4 major contracts they've awarded (Guideway, two tunnels and "Stations, rails and systems". Do you have any idea what's with the Line 5 Extension rolling stock @smallspy?
Ironically, a lot of Metrolinx's arguments about cancelling the Flexity order were about quality control.
Good question. The Alstom/Bombardier purchase closed in January 2021. Which is after the TTC took up 17 more streetcars, but before they took up the 43 remaining at the same pricing.
What is for sure, is that Metrolinx's pricing has gone up in smoke, both because of the lawsuit, and the elapsed time. But if Metrolinx wants more Flexities, then I'd think Alstom would be crazy not to quote them a price!
Certainly Alstom has been offering Flexity vehicles in Europe long after the merger. For example the 2024 deal for 15 Flexity cars for Graz, Austria. These are different than any of Graz's 85 other cars (from 3 different manufacturers!).
Attachments
Last edited:
smallspy
Senior Member
Yeah. There has be zero movement on it to date by Metrolinx. No one is really sure if it is even on their radar.
And people are starting to sweat now, because the tendering process should have probably started a year ago.
Dan
duffo
Active Member
Flexities have been retired, and having just overcome all sorts of train-related issues to open Line 5, I wouldn't be shocked if they are anxious about running a mixed fleet and a bit paralyzed about next steps.
dowlingm
Senior Member
Ultimately light rail vehicles are an assembled kit of parts from a global supply chain, and even vehicles with the same name might have some differences simply because a manufacturer of doors or whatever went out of business.
To me, it would make sense to prefer Alstom Flexities for the Crosstown West order, because:
1. Given the recent completion of the TTC add on order, it doesn't seem to me long enough to deem the skills and supply chain atrophied
2. Edmonton didn't have to worry about keeping workers on Alberta assembly lines employed
3. Citadis, while locally built, possibly not an entirely unsalvageable design, and still in the frame for Hurontario, now has two strikes in the public mind
4. No concerns about different jacking points in the Mount Dennis MSF
5. No need to recertify an entirely different vehicle with yard and tunnel signal/automation systems
I note that Hyundai Rotem are supplying Edmonton with high floor cars to replace their oldest Siemens LRVs - I wonder if the low floor order was aggressively promoted to get their foot in the door for the current and future high floor contracts.
To me, it would make sense to prefer Alstom Flexities for the Crosstown West order, because:
1. Given the recent completion of the TTC add on order, it doesn't seem to me long enough to deem the skills and supply chain atrophied
2. Edmonton didn't have to worry about keeping workers on Alberta assembly lines employed
3. Citadis, while locally built, possibly not an entirely unsalvageable design, and still in the frame for Hurontario, now has two strikes in the public mind
4. No concerns about different jacking points in the Mount Dennis MSF
5. No need to recertify an entirely different vehicle with yard and tunnel signal/automation systems
I note that Hyundai Rotem are supplying Edmonton with high floor cars to replace their oldest Siemens LRVs - I wonder if the low floor order was aggressively promoted to get their foot in the door for the current and future high floor contracts.
Bordercollie
Senior Member
I must say that line 6 is 100x worse than line 5.
The line 5 cars are smooth and don't feel like they are grinding the rail.
Speeds are much faster than buses unlike line 6.
Using Citidas rolling stock would be a huge mistake for the extension.
But the lines are operated by different companies so that might be some of the differences in how they operate.
My only nitpick is that if it announced the street after the station name. That would help.
The line 5 cars are smooth and don't feel like they are grinding the rail.
Speeds are much faster than buses unlike line 6.
Using Citidas rolling stock would be a huge mistake for the extension.
But the lines are operated by different companies so that might be some of the differences in how they operate.
My only nitpick is that if it announced the street after the station name. That would help.
Obsidian
Active Member
The lines are operated by the same company, the TTC
Bordercollie
Senior Member
Crosslinx Transit Solutions (CTS) is the consortium responsible for the 30-year maintenance and lifecycle activities for the Eglinton Crosstown LRT (Line 5), which officially opened for service on February 8, 2026.
Vs Mosaic
nfitz
Superstar
The vehicles are operated by TTC. The stations, track, systems, etc. are opererated and maintained by the consortium. It will be interesting to see how that O&M will be handled on the four projects they announced in 2019 (Line 1, Line 2, Line 5 extesions and Ontario Line 3). They seem to have learned some lessons by having multiple small construction projects, rather than a huge overarching project.
Obsidian
Active Member
Which is for maintenance, not operation
dowlingm
Senior Member
They drive the vehicles. Do you think they drive the LRVs differently on Line 5 and 6 such that the latter "are smooth and don't feel like they are grinding the rail"
crs1026
Superstar
The breakin and testing period on Line 5 was much longer than Line 6, and Line 5 has been running 2-unit trams as opposed to one unit on Line 6. The lines differ significantly in the amount of curvature that trams negotiate per trip, and the working radius of these curves differs. So, to be charitable, I would allow that there may be some small but real differences in the current wheel and rail profiles and the burn-in status of the two lines.
But the smoking gun seems to be the Citadis vehicles, which seem to be equally grindy in Ottawa. Perhaps they are indeed of lesser quality in suspension.
There are a lot of differences in how the two lines operate their vehicles, and more than likely in the underlying construction methods and materials. So it's plausible over all that there are differences that riders can detect.
Other than swapping out trams and trying each on the other line - which is technically problemmatic and unlikely to ever be needed - I can't see anyone proving anything one way or the other, too many variables at play.
it is what it is.
- Paul
But the smoking gun seems to be the Citadis vehicles, which seem to be equally grindy in Ottawa. Perhaps they are indeed of lesser quality in suspension.
There are a lot of differences in how the two lines operate their vehicles, and more than likely in the underlying construction methods and materials. So it's plausible over all that there are differences that riders can detect.
Other than swapping out trams and trying each on the other line - which is technically problemmatic and unlikely to ever be needed - I can't see anyone proving anything one way or the other, too many variables at play.
it is what it is.
- Paul
nfitz
Superstar
TTC is operating the cars on Line 6, but Mosaic is doing most of the other operations. In particular the signals and other systems.
I don't see how there's much doubt that the Citadis vehicles are part of the Finch problem. Wasn't there a wheel assembly redesign going on. I wonder how much that would change things.
Here's the most recent Ottawa report I can find. From CBC - https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/otta...e-linked-to-overloading-expert-says-9.7056019
robmausser
Senior Member
Dont speak too soon. The existing Crosstown vehicles are no longer being made. Once the Eglinton line wants to upgrade to longer trains, I wholly expect MX to chose Alstom Citadis as the new trains, since they are the vehicles of choice for the Hurontario Line as well, and they will want to keep things similar/strike up a deal with Alstom. 2 Citadis' paired together is about the same length (96m) as 3 Flexity Freedoms (93m) Im sure the doors will fit on the platforms, even if the train is a bit longer.
I also expect MX to chose them because they are incapable of making good decisions LOL