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Toronto Eglinton Line 5 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

urbanclient said:
Line 5's rolling stock is outdated, even @APTA-2048 has admitted as such. It's not entirely the rolling stock manufacturer's fault, as project delays lead to train tech aging for no fault of their own.
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I did not say they were outdated.
urbanclient said:
The meat of the argument is that Canadian rolling stock tends to be more expensive, less reliable, and somehow also less technologically advanced than European or Asian-built counterparts. Often sharing the same family name, but the end product is demonstrably inferior. Do I need to repeat the the Citadis Spirits are worse in basically every relevant way, and yet cost 30% more than the Citadis 405s for Paris?
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You keep going back to the Citadis Spirit as your one example. But I need to see some actual analysis that Canadian rolling stock is demonstrably inferior across the board
 
APTA-2048 said:
Kuala Lumpur bought Mk IIIs long after their system opened, though. Who were the three that didn't use Canadian built trains?
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This is not really relevant to my main argument, as I have defended Innovia metro from being called obsolete or outdated by @6ixGod recently. Everline, Beijing Capital, Riyadh. KL I believe bought some Canadian-built, but later orders were locally assembled + tech transfers or something: https://www.railvolution.net/news/innovia-metro-trains-for-kuala-lumpur The point is, Innovia is rare and proprietary, making comparisons of outdatedness impossible, and reliability very difficult. Of course the offshore-made trains in say China were cheaper.
APTA-2048 said:
Do you know what the TTC actually wanted?
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Yes, I am aware of what they wanted, I have seen the specs. That doesn't mean ordering the effectively* heaviest rolling stock Line 1 has ever seen was a good idea: thinking of rail and trackbed maintenance costs alone. The climate control units looking like an afterthought jutting through the ceiling...
APTA-2048 said:
They're not outdated by design.
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I mostly agree, only because I don't expect competitors to copy bogie tech very quickly. But Flexity 2 uses the exact same Flexx Urban 3000 bogie, and was released in 2009, entered service in 2012. So really, 14 year old tech on Eglinton at least. 7 to 10 years old when Eglinton first received them in 2019. Skoda 15Ts started construction in 2009, and are widely known to have better turning characteristics:

"The beauty of the Skoda 15T is that, unlike most other 100% low-floor models, it has (almost) fully rotating trucks with off-centre bearings under the first and last segment and a standard, Jacobs truck under each articulation point. To put things in perspective, pivoting on the Skoda 15T bogie is limited to about 25 degrees compared to almost about 40 degrees on our conventional CLRV/ALRV fleet (but still a hell of a lot better than about 3-4 degrees which is the most our Flexities are capable of). No matter how Bombardier sugar-coats it, not having (freely) rotating bogies is a major compromise. Instead of the bogie rotating, the entire vehicle module must be turned. Damping systems are needed to straighten the vehicle body and absorb shocks from these movements. This inevitably changes running characteristics for the worse." https://stevemunro.ca/2014/09/05/flexities-debut-on-spadina/comment-page-3/

So can we say that the Freedoms with worse turning characteristics than the Outlooks were 10 years behind the cutting-edge by 2019? It's subjective. I'm not going to say they were outdated when originally ordered ~2010, but the lead time was insanely long, which was Bombardier's fault.

I am not writing off the Canadian industry, a large part of the problem is due to an incompetent customer giving terrible specifications. I don't entirely blame BBD or Alstom for making a turd, if that's what the customer asked for, but both parties bear some responsibility for the end product. The turd not being polished or on-time is the manufacturer's fault.

However, buying off-the-shelf from offshore manufacturers would mostly solve the problems we're talking about: heavy, expensive subway trains with A/C units jutting down from the ceiling; outdated trams that somehow turn worse than contemporaries, much less newer trams (albeit offshoring would likely be politically infeasible).
 
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T3G said:
I would be outraged if any movement whatsoever was made to replace the BiLevels
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I wouldn't, I never liked that elongated octagon design, like what even is this. LIRR & MNRR EMUs have the right idea, too bad we can't have the same thing.
 
APTA-2048 said:
But I need to see some actual analysis that Canadian rolling stock is demonstrably inferior across the board
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That's too absolutist of a take to prove. If I conveyed that absolutist notion earlier, that's my mistake. It's inferior in the examples I have given, not in every case, and certainly never wholly due to the manufacturer. Toronto Rocket's, inside and out are noticeably outdated compared to rolling stock of the same era from China. I touched on A/C, LCD screens, but also the max design / operating speeds, and lighting. If you've never been on similar sized metro trains from the same era, except New York or Chicago, of course the TRs don't seem outdated then or now (to be clear, not saying this is you @APTA-2048 ). And again, I don't blame the TR's low design speeds on Bombardier, but it's still part of the pay-more-get-less argument.

Here is an example, although I am sure I can find older examples as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_2_(Wuhan_Metro)#Rolling_stock
Notice how the ceiling doesn't protrude lower to accommodate climate control like an afterthought.

The GO Bilevels being outdated is pretty obvious, do I really have to further expand on this? That's not really an indictment of the manufacturer though.

Besides TRs, Citadis, Flexities, and GO Bilevels, what other rolling stock is front of mind in Toronto? These 4 are all outdated and/or have quality issues, while also being more expensive (5 if you count Outlooks and Freedoms separately). Last I checked, France didn't have cheaper labour than Canada, so what explains the 30% cost difference for Citadis? Alstom+France=Home court advantage?
 
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urbanclient said:
This is not really relevant to my main argument, as I have defended Innovia metro from being called obsolete or outdated by @6ixGod recently. Everline, Beijing Capital, Riyadh. KL I believe bought some Canadian-built, but later orders were locally assembled + tech transfers or something: https://www.railvolution.net/news/innovia-metro-trains-for-kuala-lumpur The point is, Innovia is rare and proprietary, making comparisons of outdatedness impossible, and reliability very difficult. Of course the offshore-made trains in say China were cheaper.

Yes, I am aware of what they wanted, I have seen the specs. That doesn't mean ordering the effectively* heaviest rolling stock Line 1 has ever seen was a good idea: thinking of rail and trackbed maintenance costs alone. The climate control units looking like an afterthought jutting through the ceiling...

I mostly agree, only because I don't expect competitors to copy bogie tech very quickly. But Flexity 2 uses the exact same Flexx Urban 3000 bogie, and was released in 2009, entered service in 2012. So really, 14 year old tech on Eglinton at least. 7 to 10 years old when Eglinton first received them in 2019. Skoda 15Ts started construction in 2009, and are widely known to have better turning characteristics:

"The beauty of the Skoda 15T is that, unlike most other 100% low-floor models, it has (almost) fully rotating trucks with off-centre bearings under the first and last segment and a standard, Jacobs truck under each articulation point. To put things in perspective, pivoting on the Skoda 15T bogie is limited to about 25 degrees compared to almost about 40 degrees on our conventional CLRV/ALRV fleet (but still a hell of a lot better than about 3-4 degrees which is the most our Flexities are capable of). No matter how Bombardier sugar-coats it, not having (freely) rotating bogies is a major compromise. Instead of the bogie rotating, the entire vehicle module must be turned. Damping systems are needed to straighten the vehicle body and absorb shocks from these movements. This inevitably changes running characteristics for the worse." https://stevemunro.ca/2014/09/05/flexities-debut-on-spadina/comment-page-3/

So can we say that the Freedoms with worse turning characteristics than the Outlooks were 10 years behind the cutting-edge by 2019? It's subjective. I'm not going to say they were outdated when originally ordered ~2010, but the lead time was insanely long, which was Bombardier's fault.

I am not writing off the Canadian industry, a large part of the problem is due to an incompetent customer giving terrible specifications. I don't entirely blame BBD or Alstom for making a turd, if that's what the customer asked for, but both parties bear some responsibility for the end product. The turd not being polished is the manufacturer's fault.

However, buying off-the-shelf from offshore manufacturers would mostly solve the problems we're talking about: heavy, expensive subway trains with A/C units jutting down from the ceiling; outdated trams that somehow turn worse than contemporaries, much less newer trams (albeit offshoring would likely be politically infeasible).
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I still don’t see how going with an offshore manufacturer magically gets rid of any of the things you mentions. I’m also not convinced that the Flexity 2 is outdated. Everyone mentions Skoda, but they seemed to be the exception. I still don’t see anything convincing that a Flexity tram in Europe designed and built around the same time as a Flexity Freedom makes them outdated.


urbanclient said:
That's too absolutist of a take to prove. It's inferior in the examples I have given, not always, and certainly never wholly due to the manufacturer. Toronto Rocket's, inside and out are noticeably outdated compared to rolling stock of the same era from China. I touched on A/C, LCD screens, but also the max design / operating speeds, and lighting. If you've never been on similar sized metro trains from the same era, except New York or Chicago, of course the TRs don't seem outdated then or now (to be clear, not saying this is you @APTA-2048 ). And again, I don't blame the TR's low design speeds on Bombardier, but it's still part of the pay-more-get-less argument.

Here is an example, although I am sure I can find older examples as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_2_(Wuhan_Metro)#Rolling_stock
Notice how the ceiling doesn't protrude lower to accommodate climate control like an afterthought.

The GO Bilevels being outdated is pretty obvious, do I really have to further expand on this? That's not really an indictment of the manufacturer though.

Besides TRs, Citadis, Flexities, and GO Bilevels, what other rolling stock is front of mind in Toronto? They are outdated and/or have quality issues, while also being more expensive. Last I checked, France didn't have cheaper labour than Canada, so what explains the 30% cost difference for Citadis? Alstom+France=Home court advantage?
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You haven’t given any convincing argument that the BiLevels are outdated. There is nothing so wrong with the TRs or BiLevels that we should just give up domestic production. Flexities Freedom and Citadis have their share of problems, but so do rolling stock manufactured elsewhere.

There are a lot of pieces of rolling stock produced in Canada that even after some initial issue have proven perfectly fine. Your claim that Canada produces outdated and unreliable rolling stock as a reason to shut down manufacturing here is just not true.

I cannot comment anything regarding price. I mean it could be the French government propping up their industry in part due to massive amounts of orders.
 
pmacpherson68 said:
It's kinda sad that there wont be any fanfare or launch for Line 5, given that folks in this area have waited so long for it. At the end of the day it is a win for Toronto... Im pretty hopped up in anticipation,
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from TTC's page
We will not be hosting a launch event on February 8 but look forward to formally celebrating the opening of Line 5 in the coming months.
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Which in a way is good as it will be in the warmer months.
 
pmacpherson68 said:
Does anyone have the new Bus Route info that will be in place for Sunday?
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32C replaced by the 158, 47 north of Eglinton replaced by 18, 35 south of Eglinton replaced by 27, 56 replaced by 51A, 54 now ending at Don Valley Station. 71, 89 and 989 now pull into Mount Dennis. 34 will run across Eglinton from Mount Dennis to Kennedy less frequently then the 32 or 34 services today. And, 334 Blue Night overlaps between Kennedy and Mount Dennis.
 
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