Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[Civdis]

I don't really have sympathy for cottage users and we can't be spending billions to save minutes on their trips.

Also it doesn't even make any sense that this hypothetical extention helps the 400 at all.

Cottage users pay taxes like everyone else (probably more) so why shouldn't their concerns be taken into account when allocating capital to highway infrastructure. Not to mention the inconvenience to locals when cottage country traffic jams overflow into their communities.

 

[narduch]

Cottage users pay taxes like everyone else (probably more) so why shouldn't their concerns be taken into account when allocating capital to highway infrastructure. Not to mention the inconvenience to locals when cottage country traffic jams overflow into their communities.

Because we only have so much money to spend. And its better to spend it improving the work week rush hour. That is a problem all year long. Not for 4 days in the summer.

 

[Civdis]

Gardiner East to 401 East actually makes some sense, may not even have to to be tunnelled.

But for Allen Road to downtown? What are you on about... Most cities around the world get away with no controlled access highways downtown. That is an outdated auto lobby friendly, American-rooted urban planning embarrassment from the mid 20th century that should never be repeated again. Not to mention there is literally no room near Bloor for any highway tunnel exits, much less south of Bloor.

Cities like Seoul, San Francisco, Portland have actually removed some or all downtown highways.

I say all that as someone relatively supportive of elevated arterial ring roads as seen in Asia.

I agree that that a lot of cities, including our own, have removed elevated highway infrastructure, but we are talking about tunnels. I think tunnelling the 400 heading downtown to connect with the Gardiner would go a long way to improving congestion on the 427, Gardiner and DVP, not to mention divert traffic off the 401 that has to go east or west to get downtown. I know it would be expensive and the access points downtown would be problematic but I think it should be studied. A lot better than 401 tunnel!!!!

 

[narduch]

The funny thing about all this talk about ring roads and by-passes is that the 401 originally was created as a Toronto by-pass.

 

[Civdis]

Because we only have so much money to spend. And its better to spend it improving the work week rush hour. That is a problem all year long. Not for 4 days in the summer.

We can build more than one thing at a time. Using your logic, we would have no infrastructure in less populate parts of the province.

 

[urbanclient]

Cottage users pay taxes like everyone else (probably more) so why shouldn't their concerns be taken into account when allocating capital to highway infrastructure. Not to mention the inconvenience to locals when cottage country traffic jams overflow into their communities.

Regarding 'probably more'... The needs of the privileged minority do not outweigh the needs of the many. Paying more income taxes on an individual level does not mean their proportional tax contribution to society is higher than the lower earners and the less wealthy, nor does it mean that their overall societal contributions are proportionally greater.

I say that as someone who thinks the highest marginal income tax rates in Ontario are too high.

Take this with a massive grain of salt because this is Vox and data is from a book on the US, but Canada isn't that far off. Tax burden as a proportion of income:

The tax system is not as progressive as income taxes would suggest. Just because a cottage owner contributes more taxes in absolute figures doesn't mean they should get a bigger say than the majority of non-cottage owners, some of whom can only afford public transit.

Back to highways, the current plans for expansion seem fine. I think it's genuinely hard to argue that the GTA is lacking highway capacity given the plethora of ongoing and confirmed highway widening and expansion projects.

 

[Dreambig1]

I was looking at Google Maps and thinking, the province builds the 413 from the 401 to 400, builds the Bradford Bypass from the 400 to 404, then explores the idea of hypothetically buying the portion from the owners of the 407 ETR company for the portion running from the 404 to the location in which the province currently owns. Would this not have a positive impact on congestion on the entire 401 if this were to become a serious plan, specifically giving drivers a full east-west non-tolled route, even though it's not a continuous highway? thoughts anyone?

 

[urbanclient]

I was looking at Google Maps and thinking, the province builds the 413 from the 401 to 400, builds the Bradford Bypass from the 400 to 404, then explores the idea of hypothetically buying the portion from the owners of the 407 ETR company for the portion running from the 404 to the location in which the province currently owns. Would this not have a positive impact on congestion on the entire 401 if this were to become a serious plan, specifically giving drivers a full east-west non-tolled route, even though it's not a continuous highway? thoughts anyone?

Yes, there should be a positive impact, mostly if the 407 is partially re-acquired. But it won't be cheap. And then comes the issue of induced demand, how long until traffic gets just as bad as before? 5 years, 10 years, 15 years? Do I think the 407 being partially or fully free would be a net benefit? Yes. But that's a lot later on the priority list than simpler, cheaper improvements like QEW widening and more HOV lanes for the 400 (that are already ongoing).

Australia has higher car-ownership per capita, but Sydney and Melbourne arguably have much better highway traffic reducing transit in RER-like trains. These fast and frequent trains compete much moreso with highways than the slow subway and streetcar, even the GO train is severely lacking in comparison. If the GO train wasn't so slow and infrequent, a lot more people would take that instead of clogging the 401 between the 400 and 404 just to go south down one or the other. That part of the 401 is the biggest issue, because widening and HOVs seem impossible.

In an ideal world, the others' suggestions about a full tunnelled extension of the 400 down to the Gardiner, or even a tunnelled Allen Road extension down to the Gardiner could help a lot. Assuming the Gardiner were also tunnelled. Because the Gardiner as it stands today is a waste of prime real estate. I'm sure a lot of people actually travel north to get on the 401 from areas north of Eglinton/Lawrence just to go to the waterfront or South Etobicoke-Mississauga. If roads going south weren't so slow this would never happen.

 

[Civdis]

Regarding 'probably more'... The needs of the privileged minority do not outweigh the needs of the many. Paying more income taxes on an individual level does not mean their proportional tax contribution to society is higher than the lower earners and the less wealthy, nor does it mean that their overall societal contributions are proportionally greater.

I say that as someone who thinks the highest marginal income tax rates in Ontario are too high.

Take this with a massive grain of salt because this is Vox and data is from a book on the US, but Canada isn't that far off. Tax burden as a proportion of income:
View attachment 710925

The tax system is not as progressive as income taxes would suggest. Just because a cottage owner contributes more taxes in absolute figures doesn't mean they should get a bigger say than the majority of non-cottage owners, some of whom can only afford public transit.

Back to highways, the current plans for expansion seem fine. I think it's genuinely hard to argue that the GTA is lacking highway capacity given the plethora of ongoing and confirmed highway widening and expansion projects.

Thanks for the data, and I largely agree, but to be clear, I never said they should get a "bigger say", just that they should be considered. Don't forget that the wealthy hold most of their assets in their corporations which are taxed less, but is reinvested in their companies to provide jobs and help the economy and indeed society as a whole. You're right though, let's get back to highways.

 

[urbanclient]

I never said they should get a "bigger say", just that they should be considered.

Fair point.

 

[nfitz]

Would this not have a positive impact on congestion on the entire 401 if this were to become a serious plan, specifically giving drivers a full east-west non-tolled route, even though it's not a continuous highway? thoughts anyone?

Taking the tolls off the busiest section of the 407 would impact traffic negatively, as it would no longer be congestion free, and result at it carrying less traffic than it does now at peak. Thus forcing even more traffic onto adjacent roads.

The best way to increase capacity on the 401, is to toll it until the point it flows at about 85% to 90% of the speed limit. Then it would carry more cars at peak than it does now, reducing congestion on adjacent roads.

 

[turbanplanner]

I know it's not technically a highway issue but holy crap why does Toronto water LOVE to cut a lumpy trench days after a road has been resurfaced?

 

[urbanclient]

The best way to increase capacity on the 401, is to toll it until the point it flows at about 85% to 90% of the speed limit. Then it would carry more cars at peak than it does now, reducing congestion on adjacent roads.

I get what you're saying about effective capacity, but absolute capacity would not be increased just by tolling it.

Where would all the drivers go that would be dissuaded from driving on the 401? Wilson-York Mills-Ellesmere? Sheppard? Lawrence? Finch? And if the 427, 400, 404/DVP are not tolled as well, then the on- and off-ramps for those highways could be a nightmare.

If the overall number of cars are reduced on Toronto roads (including the 401), that wouldn't necessarily be a good thing. A lot of those people don't have other good options. Driving often costs more than transit, but it saves time (even during rush hour) and makes long commutes feasible. IMO transit sucks so bad in Toronto that I just don't see that many people switching to transit from the 401 simply due to exorbitant 407-like tolls. They're more likely to switch to non-highway arterials. Given the location and importance of the 401, I assume the tolls on the 401 would have to be higher than the 407 just to achieve a minimum 85-90% speed limit from 6am to 8pm.

 

[lenaitch]

Has anybody heard anything recently about the province uploading the DVP and Gardiner? I know it would complex but it seems it has been public radio silence since the announcement.

 

[turbanplanner]

I get what you're saying about effective capacity, but absolute capacity would not be increased just by tolling it.

Where would all the drivers go that would be dissuaded from driving on the 401? Wilson-York Mills-Ellesmere? Sheppard? Lawrence? Finch? And if the 427, 400, 404/DVP are not tolled as well, then the on- and off-ramps for those highways could be a nightmare.

If the overall number of cars are reduced on Toronto roads (including the 401), that wouldn't necessarily be a good thing. A lot of those people don't have other good options. Driving often costs more than transit, but it saves time (even during rush hour) and makes long commutes feasible. IMO transit sucks so bad in Toronto that I just don't see that many people switching to transit from the 401 simply due to exorbitant 407-like tolls. They're more likely to switch to non-highway arterials. Given the location and importance of the 401, I assume the tolls on the 401 would have to be higher than the 407 just to achieve a minimum 85-90% speed limit from 6am to 8pm.

Why don't we just mandate WFH 1 day a week for jobs where it's able?