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Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

I've driven Ravenshoe Rd. At rush hour.

It is pointless to expand the 404 eastward
Rush hour isn't the problematic time period, its weekends - particularly long weekends. It can often get crammed with people driving in and out of cottage country. Plus a 404 extension can do a lot at alleviating some of the congestion the 400 experiences by pushing more cottage country travelers to the 404.
 
Rush hour isn't the problematic time period, its weekends - particularly long weekends. It can often get crammed with people driving in and out of cottage country. Plus a 404 extension can do a lot at alleviating some of the congestion the 400 experiences by pushing more cottage country travelers to the 404.
I don't really have sympathy for cottage users and we can't be spending billions to save minutes on their trips.

Also it doesn't even make any sense that this hypothetical extention helps the 400 at all.
 
I don't really see what new highways the GTA needs though? Yes the highways are crowded. But that's why we're building all this transit because there's nowhere to put new highways. That's why Dougie has this dumb 401 tunnel idea. Like other than the 413 and Bradford Bypass, is there anything else needed?
The Bradford bypass and 413 will have zero affect on the actual traffic in Toronto proper by the way.
 
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The Bradford bypass and 413 will have zero affect on the actual traffic in Toronto property by the way.
there is a massive highway deficit in the GTA but it requires tunnelling mostly. for example, connecting Gardiner to 401 east by tunneling under east york and scaroborough. or extending Allen south to downtown. but will never happen.
 
The Bradford bypass and 413 will have zero affect on the actual traffic in Toronto proper by the way.
I wouldn't say zero but they won't do a ton.

The Bradford Bypass will relieve some pressure on the central 401 for example - rerouting traffic coming from Northern Ontario and Simcoe County wanting to go the the east end of the city (and downtown!) eastwards.

413 will similarly pull traffic going west.

Overall those numbers are pretty small though, and the traffic modelling for those highways corroborate that. The 413 and Bradford bypass have hugely beneficial traffic impacts but it's actually mostly from relieving more local traffic patterns in and around the municipalities they run through. New highways are good for corridors that don't already have good road connections like Kitchener-Hamilton, they aren't as good for relieving an existing route.

The cheapest and best way to fix congestion on a highway is widen that highway as it has a direct 1:1 impact for all trips on the corridor and is often cheaper than new corridors anyway - you need less land and often less new structures. There is a reason MTO opted to widen the 401 to Kitchener instead of building a 413 connection to create a second freeway link - it's cheaper and did a better job of actually reducing travel times.

A reminder of what MTO wants to build in the GGH over the next 25 years:

1769184669893.png


There are small handful of extra projects not on that map that MTO is building towards as well, like HOVs on the QEW from Oakville to Toronto.
 
there is a massive highway deficit in the GTA but it requires tunnelling mostly. for example, connecting Gardiner to 401 east by tunneling under east york and scaroborough. or extending Allen south to downtown. but will never happen.
Gardiner East to 401 East actually makes some sense, may not even have to to be tunnelled.

But for Allen Road to downtown? What are you on about... Most cities around the world get away with no controlled access highways downtown. That is an outdated auto lobby friendly, American-rooted urban planning embarrassment from the mid 20th century that should never be repeated again. Not to mention there is literally no room near Bloor for any highway tunnel exits, much less south of Bloor.

Cities like Seoul, San Francisco, Portland have actually removed some or all downtown highways.

I say all that as someone relatively supportive of elevated arterial ring roads as seen in Asia.
 
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Gardiner East to 401 East actually makes some sense, may not even have to to be tunnelled.

But for Allen Road to downtown? What are you on about... Most cities around the world get away with no controlled access highways downtown. That is an outdated auto lobby friendly, American-rooted urban planning embarrassment from the mid 20th century that should never be repeated again. Not to mention there is literally no room near Bloor for any highway tunnel exits, much less south of Bloor.

Cities like Seoul, San Francisco, Portland have actually removed some or all downtown highways.

I say all that as someone relatively supportive of elevated arterial ring roads as seen in Asia.
The highway removal trend is generally overplayed - the highways removed in most cases are relatively low use stub highways roughly equivalent to the eastern Gardiner which Toronto removed in the 2000's.

San Francisco removed it's elevated Embarcadero freeway in the 1980's when it literally collapsed from an earthquake, yes. But it was a duplicate route of I-80, a 10-lane highway running literally next door to it. They actually extended the US-101 freeway from the Golden Gate bridge closer to downtown a few short years ago!

Seoul has removed one highway, but still does not lack urban expressway networks at all. There is actually another freeway running east-west just 4km north of the Cheonggyecheon stream, where the highway was removed.

The ONLY example of a freeway removal in north america which is actually downgrading a major route, without a clear alternative, is the I-81 removal in Syracuse, and it hasn't even happened yet.

And even in Europe, London is the only major european city to really lack an inner city freeway connection, and even then it's basically moved it's modern downtown east to where freeway connections do exist (Canary Wharf).

Paris has the Boulevard Périphérique, a loop freeway about 9km diameter. This would be like Downtown Toronto having a loop highway extending north around High Park then east around Eglinton over to the DVP.

1769189814195.png


Amsterdam's downtown loop highway, A10, is about 5km diameter - like having a loop go from Bathurst up, then over along Dupont. (also, just saying, but this is Friday evening rush hour in Amsterdam.. lots of green!)
1769189832047.png


Madrid has one of the densest freeway networks of any city on the planet:

1769189899432.png


Barcelona has the B-10:

1769189923187.png


Frankfurt has a ~6km freeway loop around downtown:

1769189988326.png

Same with Prague:

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And so on and so forth.

Berlin opened a new urban freeway extension, the B100, last year actually!

1769190150624.png


The difference between America and the rest of the world is that America builds 20-30 lanes of freeway capacity into it's downtowns, then a 1-2km loop around the CBD. Europe doesn't entirely lack urban freeways - it just builds fewer of them and builds them smaller, typically a single 6-lane loop highway surrounding the central city instead of just the immediate CBD. It ensures that it's never particularly far for cars to access a freeway while removing through traffic from the central city. They then build great transit networks and make limited, expensive parking in the downtown to encourage other modes while still ensuring those who need to drive can still do so reasonably efficiently.

Cities like London and Vancouver which completely lack inner city freeways instead need to have lots of very large arterial roads and have lots of commercial through traffic routed onto local roads. It doesn't work as well for pedestrians or cars.

Toronto's freeway network in the central city actually much more closely aligns with the typical European practice (The Gardiner / Lakeshore combo is a bit bigger than normal for europe, but not by much) than it is a typical American inner city freeway network.

Toronto has only 6 inbound freeway lanes of capacity - A typical American city of similar scale would have 20-30. IIRC Chicago has something like 30 inbound lanes of capacity into the core.

North American urbanists too often view the way to make progress in cities as punishing cars - banning them, tolling them, deleting all car infrastructure. Europe, and indeed basically all other countries, don't work this way. They still have car infrastructure, after all, many legitimitely need cars and trucks to run a modern economy, but instead, they build actual alternatives.
 
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The highway removal trend is generally overplayed - the highways removed in most cases are relatively low use stub highways roughly equivalent to the eastern Gardiner which Toronto removed in the 2000's.

San Francisco removed it's elevated Embarcadero freeway in the 1980's when it literally collapsed from an earthquake, yes. But it was a duplicate route of I-80, a 10-lane highway running literally next door to it. They actually extended the US-101 freeway from the Golden Gate bridge closer to downtown a few short years ago!

Seoul has removed one highway, but still does not lack urban expressway networks at all. There is actually another freeway running east-west just 4km north of the Cheonggyecheon stream, where the highway was removed.

The ONLY example of a freeway removal in north america which is actually downgrading a major route, without a clear alternative, is the I-81 removal in Syracuse, and it hasn't even happened yet.

And even in Europe, London is the only major european city to really lack an inner city freeway connection, and even then it's basically moved it's modern downtown east to where freeway connections do exist (Canary Wharf).

Paris has the Boulevard Périphérique, a loop freeway about 9km around. This would be like Downtown Toronto having a loop highway extending north around High Park then east around Eglinton over to the DVP.

View attachment 710662

Amsterdam's downtown loop highway, A10, is about 5km round - like having a loop go from Bathurst up, then over along Dupont. (also, just saying, but this is Friday evening rush hour in Amsterdam.. lots of green!)
View attachment 710663

Madrid has one of the densest freeway networks of any city on the planet:

View attachment 710664

Barcelona has the B-10:

View attachment 710665

Frankfurt has a ~6km freeway loop around downtown:

View attachment 710666
Same with Prague:

View attachment 710667

And so on and so forth.

Berlin opened a new urban freeway extension, the B100, last year actually!

View attachment 710668

The difference between America and the rest of the world is that America builds 20-30 lanes of freeway capacity into it's downtowns, then a 1-2km loop around the CBD. Europe doesn't entirely lack urban freeways - it just builds fewer of them and builds them smaller, typically a sling 6-lane loop highway surrounding the central city instead of just the immediate CBD. It ensures that it's never particularly far for cars to access a freeway while removing through traffic from the central city.

Cities like London and Vancouver which completely lack inner city freeways instead need to have lots of very large arterial roads and have lots of commercial through traffic routed onto local roads. It doesn't work as well for pedestrians or cars.
"I say all that as someone relatively supportive of elevated arterial ring roads as seen in Asia." Europe has a lot less, if any, freeways that cut through downtown than North America and Asia. You think the trend is overblown because Europe never built the type of freeway we see in the US and in Toronto like Gardiner. It's true there aren't that many examples of freeway removals without replacement downtown. That's because there weren't many freeways cutting deep into downtown outside of North America to begin with...

You mentioned 4 km away for Seoul, that's the point. Eglinton is 4 km away from Bloor. Toronto's downtown is only really 3 km north-south by 5 km wide. Having elevated or trenched arterials surrounding a city centre is entirely different from the Gardiner which is 6 lanes wide plus shoulders and 100 km/h+ without traffic. Ring roads are great. I like ring roads. But, Allen Road, even if just 4 lanes wide, down to Bloor would be bad for the city, and thankfully, is physically and politically infeasible. And it was politically infeasibly five decades ago. Why are we entertaining the thought 5 decades later, when we know so much better. Front St to Bloor is ~2.7 km. Even your compact city European examples usually do not have freeways 1.35 - 2 km from the city centre.

This forum is largely pro-transit, not pro-highway for good reason. The main solution to congestion is not more freeways that connect to downtown... And my point stands. You won't find freeways cutting through or even near downtown in China, where elevated ring roads are common and still being built at a rapid pace. But the built form and intent of those elevated roads are not the same as Allen Road or the Gardiner. There is absolutely NO deficit of highways in the GTA. There is a deficit of fast, reliable transit that is time competitive with driving as is common throughout the developed and near-developed world, except for North America.

Germany is known to be one of the most car-centric major European countries, with a rail network that is falling apart and always late as a result. Not a good counterexample. More of an exception that proves the rule.

Paris has the Boulevard Périphérique, a loop freeway about 9km around. This would be like Downtown Toronto having a loop highway extending north around High Park then east around Eglinton over to the DVP.
For many of your examples, you are comparing apples to oranges. Those are NOT 'freeways'. Why are you calling them that? This is bad faith or poor research.
"The speed limit along the Périphérique is 50 km/h (31 mph) as of 1 October 2024. Each ring generally has four traffic lanes, with no hard shoulder." Does that sound like an American-style freeway to you? Many Toronto arterials have higher speed limits at 60+, and most people drive 60 on a 50 anways.
 
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I don't really have sympathy for cottage users and we can't be spending billions to save minutes on their trips.
I wouldn't be talking about this if it was "minutes"
Also it doesn't even make any sense that this hypothetical extention helps the 400 at all.
The goal is to make a more viable alternative to the 400 by letting people head north around the eastern side of Lake Simcoe than the West. Obviously in practice the 404 wouldn't be a perfect replacement unless it went up all the way to Hwy 11, but something like extending it to Hwy 12 could do a lot in shifting away travellers heading to areas like Haliburton.
 
"I say all that as someone relatively supportive of elevated arterial ring roads as seen in Asia." Europe has a lot less, if any, freeways that cut through downtown than North America and Asia. You think the trend is overblown because Europe never built the type of freeway we see in the US and in Toronto like Gardiner. It's true there aren't that many examples of freeway removals without replacement downtown. That's because there weren't many freeways cutting deep into downtown outside of North America to begin with...

You mentioned 4 km away for Seoul, that's the point. Eglinton is 4 km away from Bloor. Toronto's downtown is only really 3 km north-south by 5 km wide. Having elevated or trenched arterials surrounding a city centre is entirely different from the Gardiner which is 6 lanes wide plus shoulders and 100 km/h+ without traffic. Ring roads are great. I like ring roads. But, Allen Road, even if just 4 lanes wide, down to Bloor would be bad for the city, and thankfully, is physically and politically infeasible. And it was politically infeasibly five decades ago. Why are we entertaining the thought 5 decades later, when we know so much better. Front St to Bloor is ~2.7 km. Even your compact city European examples do not have freeways 1.35 - 2 km from the city centre.

This forum is largely pro-transit. The main solution to congestion is not more freeways that connect to downtown... And my point stands. You won't find freeways cutting through or even near downtown in China. Elevated ring roads are common and being built at a rapid pace even today. But the built form and intent of those elevated roads are not the same as Allen Road or the Gardiner.

I was leaning my argument more against demolishing the gardiner than adding the Allen.

If we removed the Gardiner the closest highway would be the 401, 11km north. Other than London, no other european city goes 11km from downtown before hitting a freeway.

Toronto ultimately has the lake which limits its ability to not build a highway right downtown. Ultimately very few european cities are actually coastal cities with the city centre right on the coast - but Barcelona is, and as I showed, it does have a direct waterfront freeway. Those european cities that are waterfront typically have the freeways running just past the downtowns on the inland side, not 11km north. It would be like deleting the Gardiner but having an east-west freeway run just north of Bloor St.

Yes, American freeway planning is to frequently have freeways run immediately into the core, and indeed often entirely surround the core on a 1-2km diameter.

European cities still loop, but slightly wider out so you have a larger contiguous urban core.

But Toronto's freeway network is not like American freeway networks, which is my entire point. Toronto's "loop" is actually much larger than most European central loops. Because it's a lakefronting city, it does have the southern portion of the loop run right through downtown.. but that happens in Europe too some times (Barcelona, Oslo, etc.).

Toronto's inner city freeways are also 6-lanes, more aligned with europe, than typical American highways which are typically 8-10 lanes.

In fact, outside of Montreal, most Canadian cities have more european style freeway networks without highways directly in the downtown. Calgary and Edmonton do not have direct downtown freeway connections. Ottawa's runs south of the central city. Quebec loops north of the core city area. And even Montreal, excluding A720, the highways loop outside of downtown.
 
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Amsterdam's downtown loop highway, A10, is about 5km round - like having a loop go from Bathurst up, then over along Dupont. (also, just saying, but this is Friday evening rush hour in Amsterdam.. lots of green!)
You are laughably misleading with this statement. It is most assuredly not like Bathurst up to Dupont.... The A10 is a 32 km ring road freeway. Many of your other examples are similar. So I am not going to spam this thread with screenshots proving it. The A10 would be the equivalent of a ring road slightly wider than this in Toronto, but rounded off on the edges:
1769192471082.png
1769193085488.png


I was leaning my argument more against demolishing the gardiner than adding the Allen.
That's the thing, I never said we should demolish the Gardiner, we have to keep it until the heat death of the universe because transit expansion in the GTA is abysmal. A waterfront elevated freeway is not ideal though. Lots of prime real estate for housing and park development, ruined by the Gardiner. And I love taking the Gardiner outside of rush hour. But it's not ideal for the waterfront.
 
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If we removed the Gardiner the closest highway would be the 401, 11km north. Other than London, no other european city goes 11km from downtown before hitting a freeway.
The (1990s) Gardiner removal plans were never about eliminating Gardiner and DVP access into downtown. Simply removing the connection. In the west it would have terminated at Front and Bathurst, and in the north it would terminated at Richmond/Adelaide (though perhaps the spur of the Don Roadway to Lakeshore would have remained.

From the west access may have been better, without having the left turns off Lakeshore.

As for Syracuse - there'll surely be access roads into downtown - but I-81 traffic would bypass on existing interstate 481 (which I assume would be renumbered I-81) in the eastern part of the city - which I invariably already do for convenience when driving from Binghamton to Watertown.
 
You are laughably misleading with this statement. It is most assuredly not like Bathurst up to Dupont.... The A10 is a 32 km ring road freeway. Your other examples are similar. So I am not going to spam this thread proving it.
View attachment 710671
You are right on that one, I mismeasured a bit.. It's more like if Toronto had a loop from Dufferin to St Clair if the loop centred on the downtown.. if we assumed the same size loop on the existing DVP and Gardiner, it would be like having the loop around Eglinton and Keele.

Toronto's "Loop" is over twice the length:

1769193177125.png


My math was wrong, but the point stands.

Paris is also about half the size of Toronto:

1769193620712.png
 

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The (1990s) Gardiner removal plans were never about eliminating Gardiner and DVP access into downtown. Simply removing the connection. In the west it would have terminated at Front and Bathurst, and in the north it would terminated at Richmond/Adelaide (though perhaps the spur of the Don Roadway to Lakeshore would have remained.

From the west access may have been better, without having the left turns off Lakeshore.

As for Syracuse - there'll surely be access roads into downtown - but I-81 traffic would bypass on existing interstate 481 (which I assume would be renumbered I-81) in the eastern part of the city - which I invariably already do for convenience when driving from Binghamton to Watertown.
it would have shifted inbound capacity into the core onto basically just Lakeshore and Front St. which would have been far less than today, where it spreads across Spadina, York, Jarvis, etc.. It would have also forced through traffic right through the core. Going from Leslieville to Etobicoke? Or even southern Scarborough to Hamilton? That routing would get sent right through the middle of downtown Toronto. It's why loop roads are important, they allow through traffic to stay off local streets. It also would have meant things like cutting lanes on Front in front of Union wouldn't have been possible.

I-81 has a decent alternative for traffic going north and east, but traffic going west will have to use the new at-grade road as the detour is too large onto I-481.
 

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