Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[crs1026]

Why not just double track the Bala Sub north to Washago?

Because that amounts to 58.9 miles of double track construction, at how much per mile, when all that is required is possibly 6 miles of siding in a couple locations, or just extending existing sidings somewhat, and for how many riders per day?.

We are in fairyland thinking here.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

A night train would imply sleeping accommodations. If such equipment exists, it would mean the added cost of another fleet type since, as I understand it, the Venture series has no such configuration.

Via is set to replace their LDF. If it were to be done, it would make sense to piggy back on their order.
Let's first see how well this train works.

Because that amounts to 58.9 miles of double track construction, at how much per mile, when all that is required is possibly 6 miles of siding in a couple locations, or just extending existing sidings somewhat, and for how many riders per day?.

We are in fairyland thinking here.

- Paul

Fair enough. If more sidings or extending sidings would keep the Canadian and future Northlander on schedule, then lets do that.

 

[NorthernTracks]

Success or failure depends how the Northlander is reintroduced
https://northerntracks.blog/2026/01...-depends-how-the-northlander-is-reintroduced/

 

[micheal_can]

Success or failure depends how the Northlander is reintroduced
https://northerntracks.blog/2026/01...-depends-how-the-northlander-is-reintroduced/

As a northerner, and speaking with other northerners who would use this, they care more that it exists than much else. Delays are accepted so long as it exists. The question of it being divested, again, is a touchy one. One that may become the political hot potato that no party will want to touch again.It likely is along the lines of the shrinking of GO service that has happened in the past.

 

[NorthernTracks]

As a northerner, and speaking with other northerners who would use this, they care more that it exists than much else. Delays are accepted so long as it exists. The question of it being divested, again, is a touchy one. One that may become the political hot potato that no party will want to touch again.It likely is along the lines of the shrinking of GO service that has happened in the past.

Delays are accepted ... up to a point.

As a regular traveler between Thunder Bay & North Bay who uses passenger trains, I don't want the Northlander to flop as a result of the same issues plaguing the Canadian or the Sud-WR trains.

Twice this year, I had my travel plans upended because VIA Rail cancelled the Sudbury-White River train due to mechanical issues. No standby equipment to replace the main fleet (which is 70+ years old).

At Christmas, the other train I took (the Canadian) was nearly 20 hours late into Sudbury.

I bring up these issues not to be a negative Nelly, but to bring to attention what needs resolving so that the Northlander doesn't suffer from the same fate of being terribly unreliable.

 

[micheal_can]

Delays are accepted ... up to a point.

As a regular traveler between Thunder Bay & North Bay who uses passenger trains, I don't want the Northlander to flop as a result of the same issues plaguing the Canadian or the Sud-WR trains.

Twice this year, I had my travel plans upended because VIA Rail cancelled the Sudbury-White River train due to mechanical issues. No standby equipment to replace the main fleet (which is 70+ years old).

At Christmas, the other train I took (the Canadian) was nearly 20 hours late into Sudbury.

I bring up these issues not to be a negative Nelly, but to bring to attention what needs resolving so that the Northlander doesn't suffer from the same fate of being terribly unreliable.

My hope (maybe even fantasy) is that this train is such a success that the province looks at expanding passenger rail across Northern ON. So, before we count it as a failure, lets see it up and running first. Too many are all doom and gloom. They tend to think if it is not perfect, it is an abysmal failure. Up here, we are used to "good enough".

 

[lenaitch]

My hope (maybe even fantasy) is that this train is such a success that the province looks at expanding passenger rail across Northern ON. So, before we count it as a failure, lets see it up and running first. Too many are all doom and gloom. They tend to think if it is not perfect, it is an abysmal failure. Up here, we are used to "good enough".

For those who want to see a 'GO North', with passenger trains scurrying all over, keep in mind that this is (will be) an ONR train, operating on mostly ONR property. Any other passenger rail will have to contend with being a 100% tenant. That would entail either poor track conditions (i.e. HCR) or being subject to freight (i.e. CPKC).

ONR trackage is commercially viable with or without a passenger train. Huron Central is questionable, and if you think the province assuming the line for one or trains per week, you are a more willing taxpayer than most.

 

[NorthernTracks]

For those who want to see a 'GO North', with passenger trains scurrying all over, keep in mind that this is (will be) an ONR train, operating on mostly ONR property. Any other passenger rail will have to contend with being a 100% tenant. That would entail either poor track conditions (i.e. HCR) or being subject to freight (i.e. CPKC).

ONR trackage is commercially viable with or without a passenger train. Huron Central is questionable, and if you think the province assuming the line for one or trains per week, you are a more willing taxpayer than most.

Restoring passenger rail services in an area like Northern Ontario is not as simple as flipping a switch. Think about the years of hounding politicians, getting buy-in from MPPs, and following up with them to ensure it gets done.

I've written nearly 30 columns and sent countless letters to the Premier, opposition leaders, transportation Ministers, critics and each MPP over the course of 10 years. The same applies for the federal government with regard to VIA Rail in this region.

The infrastructure for the Northlander was somewhat already there (albeit not always in the best condition). Ontario Northland owns roughly half the route the train will operate on.

It's a completely different situation between Toronto, Sudbury and Sault-Ste-Marie. None of the tracks are publicly owned. Passenger rail hasn't existed on this route since The 1970s (HCR portion). The stations have all but disappeared on the Huron Central line. The track speeds are very slow, to put it politely.

Can you even get buy-in from any of the in-government MPPs (one of whom was kicked out of Doug Ford's caucus)?

Whoever takes this on is going to have an uphill climb to generate any traction.

 

[crs1026]

The Northlander will be an interesting test case. It's the best train that can be offered on an infrastructure that has not been optimised for passenger trains over freight. It has a service plan that tries to walk a line between what people in the north are thought to find most useful (ie arrival in Toronto early in the day, departure at end of day) and other markets that may be more sustainable (the "shorts" in the more populous region from North Bay south).
The question becomes, can a train that only runs infrequently (hence low revenue potential) and doesn't offer time advantage over road or air for a relatively long trip time and distance actually attract enough riders to justify the long term investment ?
I am suspicious that once the inaugural cheering and identity boosting is over, people in the north will not use the train, and the next government will wonder if it's worth maintaining.
That case study result would just about kill any potential for restored train service in most of the places that the dreamers here suggest, so yes it's critical that this train succeed.... or maybe it will simply teach the dreamers a data backed lesson that we have debated but haven't tested in real life.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

For those who want to see a 'GO North', with passenger trains scurrying all over, keep in mind that this is (will be) an ONR train, operating on mostly ONR property. Any other passenger rail will have to contend with being a 100% tenant. That would entail either poor track conditions (i.e. HCR) or being subject to freight (i.e. CPKC).

That is why I feel it is almost a fantasy.

ONR trackage is commercially viable with or without a passenger train. Huron Central is questionable, and if you think the province assuming the line for one or trains per week, you are a more willing taxpayer than most.

If the owners of HCR were wanting to fold it, and if the province saw it as something that should not be abandoned, then, maybe it gets folded into ONR. HCR and OVR have such low traffic that one day I could see them shutting down due to lack of funds. What is really needed is industrial investment along those lines to make them viable on their own. That in turn means a prosperous Northern ON. Maybe a BYD car plant?

 

[micheal_can]

Restoring passenger rail services in an area like Northern Ontario is not as simple as flipping a switch. Think about the years of hounding politicians, getting buy-in from MPPs, and following up with them to ensure it gets done.

I've written nearly 30 columns and sent countless letters to the Premier, opposition leaders, transportation Ministers, critics and each MPP over the course of 10 years. The same applies for the federal government with regard to VIA Rail in this region.

The infrastructure for the Northlander was somewhat already there (albeit not always in the best condition). Ontario Northland owns roughly half the route the train will operate on.

It's a completely different situation between Toronto, Sudbury and Sault-Ste-Marie. None of the tracks are publicly owned. Passenger rail hasn't existed on this route since The 1970s (HCR portion). The stations have all but disappeared on the Huron Central line. The track speeds are very slow, to put it politely.

Can you even get buy-in from any of the in-government MPPs (one of whom was kicked out of Doug Ford's caucus)?

Whoever takes this on is going to have an uphill climb to generate any traction.

I have read many of your columns. I feel you and I think similarly on the topic. However, it seems you know how to do the legwork.

The buy in is the easy part for a northern ON MPP., it is the premier that needs to want to spend the political capital. One of the key reasons I feel the Northlander is returning is the push by Fedeli, the former Mayor of North Bay. While the mess with SSM's MPP is unfortunate, we have many more election cycles before anything more is thought of for Northern ON.

If a passenger train were to be announced for SSM through North Bay, the godo thing is, since there is nothing, there is almost a clean slate. For instance,no push from places like what happened with South River Bracebridge or Gravenhurst.

What we need is the Northlander to be a success. We also need the demand to stay for the buses. That will then say that other places may be worth the political capital.

 

[micheal_can]

The Northlander will be an interesting test case. It's the best train that can be offered on an infrastructure that has not been optimised for passenger trains over freight. It has a service plan that tries to walk a line between what people in the north are thought to find most useful (ie arrival in Toronto early in the day, departure at end of day) and other markets that may be more sustainable (the "shorts" in the more populous region from North Bay south).
The question becomes, can a train that only runs infrequently (hence low revenue potential) and doesn't offer time advantage over road or air for a relatively long trip time and distance actually attract enough riders to justify the long term investment ?
I am suspicious that once the inaugural cheering and identity boosting is over, people in the north will not use the train, and the next government will wonder if it's worth maintaining.
That case study result would just about kill any potential for restored train service in most of the places that the dreamers here suggest, so yes it's critical that this train succeed.... or maybe it will simply teach the dreamers a data backed lesson that we have debated but haven't tested in real life.

- Paul

The reason the Northlander could be successful has nothing to do with how long it takes to get there. Or even how often it runs. The reason it will be successful, if it will be successful is due to how scary it is to drive on Northern ON highways, especially in winter. With how many accidents happen on our highways that close them, or that involve deaths, and the fact that twinning 11 north of North Bay is not likely to happen any time soon, It is really a case of wanting to go somewhere and do it without the risk of death.

I do agree that at worst,this will be a test full of data as to running a train in Northern ON. My hope is it is full most of the time.

 

[Bordercollie]

The reason the Northlander could be successful has nothing to do with how long it takes to get there. Or even how often it runs. The reason it will be successful, if it will be successful is due to how scary it is to drive on Northern ON highways, especially in winter. With how many accidents happen on our highways that close them, or that involve deaths, and the fact that twinning 11 north of North Bay is not likely to happen any time soon, It is really a case of wanting to go somewhere and do it without the risk of death.

I do agree that at worst,this will be a test full of data as to running a train in Northern ON. My hope is it is full most of the time.

I wonder if they allow pets on board. For buses, dogs needs to be small enough to fit in a carrier.

 

[micheal_can]

I wonder if they allow pets on board. For buses, dogs needs to be small enough to fit in a carrier.

No idea. I am guessing the same rules will apply.

 

[turbanplanner]

The reason the Northlander could be successful has nothing to do with how long it takes to get there. Or even how often it runs. The reason it will be successful, if it will be successful is due to how scary it is to drive on Northern ON highways, especially in winter. With how many accidents happen on our highways that close them, or that involve deaths, and the fact that twinning 11 north of North Bay is not likely to happen any time soon, It is really a case of wanting to go somewhere and do it without the risk of death.

I do agree that at worst,this will be a test full of data as to running a train in Northern ON. My hope is it is full most of the time.

As someone with family in the worst stretch, it sucks that the train can't do that much for people west or north of Timmins