Finch West Line 6 LRT

[JSF-1]

This is actually pathetic.

So the rest of the TTC streetcar network can operate (to whatever constraints) today, but yet Finch West cannot?

This is actually an inexcusable, laughable joke. Yes there's a significant amount of snow today, but if this line cant operate in inclement conditions than people have every right to be frustrated with how billions were spent for a line that's kneecapped.

Metrolinx and Mosaic just keep digging a bigger hole as to why people will likely be increasingly against LRTs going forward.

I think it proves two other things. Metrolinx needs to be fully removed from the construction and planning process of transit lines since this is yet another example of them having no clue what they are doing. They used all of the same equipment as the Confederation Line in Ottawa even after they were aware of the issues it caused (Metrolinx in general needs to be dissolved since to me it has failed its mandate and has delivered nothing to the GTA). We should just go back to how things used to be with the TTC in charge of the design and construction of new rapid transit lines since they have a better and more proven track record (even if its not 100% perfect). The other thing it proves imo is we need to abandon the P3 model. Mosaic has proven ineffective at maintaining the line and make no mistake these issues can also arise on the EC and OL. All the P3 has done is given everyone a way to deflect blame onto someone else. While the TTC is by no means perfect and their operating practices are suspect and needs to be scrutinized and fixed, having the TTC being the sole operator and maintaner of infrastructure is a system that worked for over 100 years. Going to the P3 model was supposed to be a way to reduce costs yet it has just created more headaches and finger pointing; and cost saving could have been found under the previous model with a little effort.

 

[jmi22]

Then you would need to run buses in parallel which has a cost. Think of the people who cannot walk 1600m to transit.

The problem is not the number of stops, it's the speed the line operates and the lights that it gets held at, and probably stopping at each stop for 3 minutes contributes to that.

So allow the trains signal priority
Allow them to go faster
Only dwell at stops until everyone has gotten off or on.
That will cut travel down to half.

I bet you the queen car travels through the beaches faster than line 6.

Somebody not able to walk 1600m is:

(1) an obscenely small percentage of the population that should not be the primary consideration in rapid transit design

and

(2) able to utilize our already heavily subsidized and world-standard Wheel trans network

 

[Milaisacat]

A 1600-metre walk would also suggest 3.2km stop spacing, which nobody is suggesting.

 

[duffo]

Somebody not able to walk 1600m is:

(1) an obscenely small percentage of the population that should not be the primary consideration in rapid transit design

and

(2) able to utilize our already heavily subsidized and world-standard Wheel trans network

1.6km is the walk down Yonge between Bloor and Dundas (20 minutes). In what world are we asking people to walk that distance just to get to an LRT stop? There is a tipping point where adding walk time starts to slow your overall journey down more than the travel time savings you get from incrementally speeding up the vehicle.

 

[jmi22]

I am not suggesting such a stop spacing, but responding to a comment from someone arguing that was an untenable distance to expect anyone to walk to a transit stop from their trip start point (i.e a house inside a neighbourhood far from the arterial thus requiring a walk longer than the nominal stop spacing)

 

[Jonny5]

Somebody not able to walk 1600m is:

(1) an obscenely small percentage of the population that should not be the primary consideration in rapid transit design

and

(2) able to utilize our already heavily subsidized and world-standard Wheel trans network

I'm not sure how "obscenely" became your adjective of choice here, but the share of the population unable to walk that far is clearly larger than you think, especially on a day like today.
Wheel Trans is not an on demand service. You cannot call them now and get a ride in five minutes. It's more like five days. It may be heavily subsidized, but that subsidy has not increased in real dollars because the TTC has done everything they can for a decade now to keep anyone new using the regular system, or at least keeping the number of users from increasing at all.

 

[jmi22]

I'm not sure how "obscenely" became your adjective of choice here, but the share of the population able to walk that far is clearly larger than you think, especially on a day like today.

Pedantic.

Wheel Trans is not an on demand service. You cannot call them now and get a ride in five minutes. It's more like five days. It's may be heavily subsidized, but that subsidy has not increased in real dollars because the TTC has done everything they can for a decade now to keep anyone new using the system, or at least keeping the number of users from increasing at all.

No, a service that receives 6% of the entire TTC's budget to serve 1% of total ridership (approx 11,900 wheel trans trips v.s. 1.13 million typical TTC trips in 2025) is not some chronically underfunded or deprived service. Keeping wheel trans trips as low as possible for those who truly need it is a good means of preventing the TTC's already dismal fiscal state from spiraling further, which would hurt every single rider, wheel trans or conventional.

The inability of so many people to understand that tradeoffs exist, whether in determining stop spacing or transit funding, is just unbelievable.

 

[yrt+viva=1system]

Personally I think the issues are being glazed over; using switch problems and the lack of TSP as the simplified explanation.

While these are part of the on-going problems. The line’s operations deserve more criticism. Slow operations and timidness is directly the TTC’s fault. They brought their asinine streetcar operations safety culture to the LRT, an exact copy from their currently operations policies. They refused to adopt modern operations that are found globally and insisted that they have the the expertise from 100 years of history. In reality, the TTC has become complacent and fearful of operations because they don’t understand the infrastructure in place and lack the engineering Subject Matter Expertise that they once had.

The Finch Line is built to a North American understanding of what an LRT is. One can easily see that the engineering is based on existing North American LRT infrastructure and using modified standard North American railroad infrastructure. This is true in the switches and rail that were procured. Which is also the issues that were highlighted in Ottawa’s problem plagued LRT.

I do wonder if Finch West would be different if it was designed as similar as possible to how European LRT/Tram Lines are built. Thus using European rail switch designs and rail profiles and not some shoehorned modified FRA-railway infrastructure.

My 2 cents on the current discussion.


Addendum:
Something I have observed with the unexplained slow segments on the Finch
West are the location of schools. Specifically Tobermory to Finch West Station and Westmore and Albion. Seems to be a permanent speed restriction imposed by the TTC in relationship to where schools are located and the fear of students jaywalking across the LRT as a shortcut to residential areas. This was apparent to me with the slow operation at night around 8 pm. Which piqued my curiosity and led me to take a look at Google Maps. Could be wrong but this is my assumption.

 

[tkamb]

Personally I think the issues are being glazed over; using switch problems and the lack of TSP as the simplified explanation.

While these are part of the on-going problems. The line’s operations deserve more criticism. Slow operations and timidness is directly the TTC’s fault. They brought their asinine streetcar operations safety culture to the LRT, an exact copy from their currently operations policies. They refused to adopt modern operations that are found globally and insisted that they have the the expertise from 100 years of history. In reality, the TTC has become complacent and fearful of operations because they don’t understand the infrastructure in place and lack the engineering Subject Matter Expertise that they once had.

The Finch Line is built to a North American understanding of what an LRT is. One can easily see that the engineering is based on existing North American LRT infrastructure and using modified standard North American railroad infrastructure. This is true in the switches and rail that were procured. Which is also the issues that were highlighted in Ottawa’s problem plagued LRT.

I do wonder if Finch West would be different if it was designed as similar as possible to how European LRT/Tram Lines are built. Thus using European rail switch designs and rail profiles and not some shoehorned modified FRA-railway infrastructure.

My 2 cents on the current discussion.

I don’t really buy the idea of “European vs. North American vs. Asian trains” is really the issue—trains are trains. What matters is efficiency. Great infrastructure can still perform poorly if you add lots of bureaucracy into it, and weaker infrastructure doesn’t necessary equals a bad customer experience.

A lot comes down to operations. Operator should look for ways to improve efficiency with the infrastructure they already have. For example, the the direct consequences of Line 6 long travel time is longer waits because more vehicles are needed to maintain frequency. Can TTC reliably keep to its own schedule? Short-turn to reduce delay impacts?

You nailed the questions: When TTC doesn’t even know what’s happening in Waterloo, it raises the questions how much effort it puts into LRT operation. Does TTC really relay on Metrolinx and Mosac to spoon-feed info/knowledge?

This reminds me of City Beautiful’s Seven Demands of Useful Transit Service to analyze Disney World as a transit agency:

1. It takes me where I want to go?
2. It takes me when I want to go?
3. It’s a good use of my time?
4. It’s a good use of my money?
5. It respects me?
6. I can trust it?
7. It gives me freedom to change my plans?

Disney Transport is huge. But is it good transit?
Spoiler: Disney World is good as a transit agency.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2011834146306298108

 

[FW36]

So I decided to walk along finch around 11 am and I noticed there was an lrt train running. It was out of service due to the snow but was moving west and still stopping at all stops. I saw it go from kipling to Humber college.

 

[Bordercollie]

Its because they don't have people sweeping the switches. It's such a no brainer. Its not like they dont know it's going to snow.

 

[turbanplanner]

This is actually pathetic.

So the rest of the TTC streetcar network can operate (to whatever constraints) today, but yet Finch West cannot?

This is actually an inexcusable, laughable joke. Yes there's a significant amount of snow today, but if this line cant operate in inclement conditions than people have every right to be frustrated with how billions were spent for a line that's kneecapped.

Metrolinx and Mosaic just keep digging a bigger hole as to why people will likely be increasingly against LRTs going forward.

Snow... In Toronto?

Chance in a million!

 

[Jonny5]

Pedantic.



No, a service that receives 6% of the entire TTC's budget to serve 1% of total ridership (approx 11,900 wheel trans trips v.s. 1.13 million typical TTC trips in 2025) is not some chronically underfunded or deprived service. Keeping wheel trans trips as low as possible for those who truly need it is a good means of preventing the TTC's already dismal fiscal state from spiraling further, which would hurt every single rider, wheel trans or conventional.

View attachment 708978

The inability of so many people to understand that tradeoffs exist, whether in determining stop spacing or transit funding, is just unbelievable.

"Pedantic" is your histrionics like all the others who want the TTC to serve them and not anyone else.
You're being pouty over people not agreeing with you and actually wanting what you apparently despise. Welcome to reality. We can't all get what we want, and in this case you can't. It's not a failure, it's life. Grow up and deal with it.

 

[A 6264]

Now my curiosity is piqued! I'm not taking sides on what is being discussed, nor trying to insult or embarrass anyone. But I have to ask...

Somebody not able to walk 1600m is: ... an obscenely small percentage of the population that should not be the primary consideration in rapid transit design

I'm not sure how "obscenely" became your adjective of choice here, but the share of the population able to walk that far is clearly larger than you think, especially on a day like today.

Pedantic.

pedantic = overly concerned with minute details

I'l echo Jonny's question: How is a tiny amount of something (especially when it's people) an obscenity? I can see a huge amount of something as being obscene. A small amount of money as compensation for a wrongdoing could be obscene. But what thinking led to the use of this word when talking about something the writer considers insignificant? It's not pedantic to be curious when reading postings on the internet, and trying to figure out what the poster is trying to say, or what they are thinking or implying.