Finch West Line 6 LRT

[cplchanb]

Wonder whether those electric switch heaters were also used for the Eglinton Crosstown LRT? This is bonkers!

yea but do you honestly think they could afford to rip up all the switches and redo the infrastructure? going from electric to gas aint cheap when everything is already in place? dont forget these lines have been under construction for years. adding gas lines to 10km of road is extremely time consuming and expensive after the fact. Enbridge takes forever to review and approve applications for 1 building let alone an entire stretch of road.

any lessons learned is for ECTW and beyond. Even ontario line may be past that point already since it is a very fundamental change.

 

[urbanclient]

Didn't Edmonton try (and fail) with CBTC on the surface with the Metro line?

Hence why I said surface-only street running tram to make this distinction clear. A few metro-like trams use CBTC to achieve very short headways in tunnels etc. That's less than 10 out of almost 600 trams/LRTs in the world.

The Edmonton Metro line doesn't remotely look like Finch West. 6 out of 10 current stations are underground and it has a much higher level of grade separation in general, to the point of being mostly a metro/subway as opposed to your typical street running tram.

Again these clowns at Metrolinx decided to re-invent the wheel by wasting money on CBTC for a manually operated tram. If you shell out money for CBTC, then you should at least be achieving GoA2, semi-automatic train operations like Line 1. But of course, that's not possible when you have a median-running tram with 24 level crossings over <10 km of surface track...

 

[cplchanb]

The whole motivation behind constructing Transit City was to bring "European" style transit to Toronto. Yet lines 5 & 6 weren't even constructed to European standards. So the city can't even operate them in a European manner. Which in some ways defeats the very purpose of having constructed Transit City.

this is what you get when you rely on north american expertise. they dont have any clue how things work in europe/asia.

 

[Bojaxs]

this is what you get when you rely on north american expertise. they dont have any clue how things work in europe/asia.

Have the folks at Metrolinx actually gone to Europe to see how trams work? I've already made multiple posts about how the LRT lines in Toronto lack two phase pedestrian crossings. Something that is common with a lot of tram lines across Europe.

I'm back in London, England and I'm planning to ride the TfL Tram from Wimbeldon to Croydon to see how it compares to my recent riding on the Finch West Line.

 

[urbanclient]

this is what you get when you rely on north american expertise. they dont have any clue how things work in europe/asia.

Let me correct you there, they don't have any clue how things work. Period. They don't know how things work on planet Earth. They are clueless.

Ignorance can be forgiven, not even attempting to learn from those before you, not attempting to stand on the shoulders of giants, is negligence if not outright malice.

 

[nfitz]

Have the folks at Metrolinx actually gone to Europe to see how trams work? I've already made multiple posts about how the LRT lines in Toronto lack two phase pedestrian crossings. Something that is common with a lot of tram lines across Europe.

With Toronto converting the (few) existing two-phase crossings to single-phase to improve safety and reduce pedestrian injuries, I don't see how they'd even consider adding any - especially when Finch is little if any wider than some existing crossings that were never two phase.

Yes, you have already made multiple posts.

 

[urbanclient]

With Toronto converting the (few) existing two-phase crossings to single-phase to improve safety and reduce pedestrian injuries, I don't see how they'd even consider adding any - especially when Finch is little if any wider than some existing crossings that were never two phase.

Yes, you have already made multiple posts.

Single-phase crossings are not safer and do not reduce pedestrian injuries (can I get a source for your claim?), especially in the case of a wide stroad like Finch West. If this is the reasoning behind the alleged conversions, then the reasoning would be very questionable.

The City's documentation on multi-stage pedestrian crossings and crossovers does not mention the alleged safety benefit of a single stage over multi-stage. It just mentions the City's attempt at car-centrism (IMO) by requiring single-stage crossings at most intersections, which leads to wider lanes for cars:

https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/u...perations-Policies-and-Strategies_Final-a.pdf

On the contrary, it's widely accepted that pedestrian refuge islands and two-stage crossings increase pedestrian safety and are recommended for roads 4 lanes or wider by the US DOT:
https://highways.dot.gov/media/11851
https://highways.dot.gov/safety/pro...trian-refuge-islands-urban-and-suburban-areas
https://highways.dot.gov/safety/pro...andum-consideration-and-implementation-proven
https://legacy.trafficalm.com/artic...s-uncontrolled-pedestrian-crossing-treatments
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1447993/

Two-stage signalized crossings are far from perfect, but they are decidedly safer than single-stage signalized crossings. Especially for a 6 lane wide Finch Avenue West.

 

[TRONto]

Aside from Signal priority how could the TTC do better for St Clair?

The speeds now are LOWER than with mixed traffic

I was only referring to the construction.

I would guess it's also slower due to political interference (I have to have my stop!).

The TTC would probably have preferred to rip everything out and run a bus.

 

[urbanclient]

"Early impressions of Toronto's line 6 are overwhelmingly negative according to a new poll."

 

[rankman]

Didn't Edmonton try (and fail) with CBTC on the surface with the Metro line?

Edmonton's Metro Line is interlined with the existing Capital Line LRT which uses fixed block signalling. Thales claimed that they could integrate the moving block and fixed block systems of the 2 lines but failed spectacularly leading to a delay to the opening of the Metro Line.

 

[TwoWheelPoli]

Luckily they have not been used. The Crosstown switches are different, arent buried in concrete and use different heaters, and can be easily heated with portable gas heaters if needed.

Good to know. Thank you.

 

[afransen]

With Toronto converting the (few) existing two-phase crossings to single-phase to improve safety and reduce pedestrian injuries, I don't see how they'd even consider adding any - especially when Finch is little if any wider than some existing crossings that were never two phase.

Yes, you have already made multiple posts.

Are single phase crossings really safer if they lead to such long signal phases that people decide to jaywalk instead? Multiphase crossings are common in jurisdictions with much better track record on vision zero than Toronto, like NL and Denmark.

 

[nfitz]

Are single phase crossings really safer if they lead to such long signal phases that people decide to jaywalk instead?

It might be more safer in Denmark. I saw enough people simply ignore the two phase signs in Toronto and walk the whole thing at once, even if it was red before they reached the other side.

I'm sure a car fan or some best-ignored consutlan-written traffic manual would argue it's safer for two-stage - but that ignores the reality of Toronto pedestrians. I suspect in somewhere like Denmark they might be more likely to ticket pedestrians, and put all the ugly anti-pedestrian fences everywhere, that I see in the UK ... where I've even seen 3-phase crossings! I wonder how many phases one could get at a car-centric roundabout ....

 

[urbanclient]

It might be more safer in Denmark. I saw enough people simply ignore the two phase signs in Toronto and walk the whole thing at once, even if it was red before they reached the other side.

I'm sure a car fan or some best-ignored consutlan-written traffic manual would argue it's safer for two-stage - but that ignores the reality of Toronto pedestrians. I suspect in somewhere like Denmark they might be more likely to ticket pedestrians, and put all the ugly anti-pedestrian fences everywhere, that I see in the UK ... where I've even seen 3-phase crossings! I wonder how many phases one could get at a car-centric roundabout ....

It's well established that two-stage crossings are safer than single-stage crossings, especially in the context of a 6 lane wide stroad that Line 6 is built on. Let's not argue against decades of research on this topic, notably from Charles Zegeer. Just because you feel like single-stage crossings are safer in anecdotal cases, doesn't mean they are safer for the vast majority of cases.

Research in this field has long moved on from whether multi-stage crossings are safer (they are safer), but whether anything can be done to optimize or increase safety and pedestrian compliance at multi-stage crossings. E.g. decreasing/optimizing wait times for pedestrians on the refuge island because long waits make them more likely to jaywalk.

Single stage crossings usually result in wider car lanes at intersections, which is why I consider them more car-centric than two stage crossings. Even if two stage crossings tend to decrease red intervals for cars. The effectiveness and existence of this car-centric intent can definitely be debated.

Pedestrian refuge islands mean the median at an intersection could be at least 2.4 metres wide [1], as opposed to the minimum 0.5 metre wide painted centreline buffers [2]. In practice, the total lane width sacrifice may be less than 1.9 metres, for a variety of reasons, including but not limited to: pre-existing 1.2 m wide median islands [3], and curb-to-curb road surface widths being wider at intersections to begin with. Nonetheless, some sacrifice to lane width is usually made.

1. If the City chooses to go by MTO guidelines https://tcp.mto.gov.on.ca/sites/default/files/2023-06/MTO DS Draft June 6 2023-min.pdf (pg. 152/536)
2. https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/96f7-Lane-Widths-Guideline-Version-3.0.pdf (pg. 26/62)
3. https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/9013-ecs-specs-roadwd-T-310.030-21-Rev0-Sep2024.pdf

 

[Bordercollie]

27 stops for 7 km. Start by cutting 50% of the stops.

Then you would need to run buses in parallel which has a cost. Think of the people who cannot walk 1600m to transit.

The problem is not the number of stops, it's the speed the line operates and the lights that it gets held at, and probably stopping at each stop for 3 minutes contributes to that.

So allow the trains signal priority
Allow them to go faster
Only dwell at stops until everyone has gotten off or on.
That will cut travel down to half.

I bet you the queen car travels through the beaches faster than line 6.