Finch West Line 6 LRT

[robmausser]

Someone on Youtube claimed this. Is this true? If it is, is that the end of the subway vs. LRT argument?

View attachment 708476

The metro area of Barcelona is 6 million in an area smaller than downtown Toronto. This is the issue with throwing around population, its not apples and oranges. Whats important is population density.

Also there are a ton of informations online about how Subway costs are a lot cheaper in Europe and Asia than North America.

Furthermore, many of the Barcelona lines were built in the 1920s-1970s, back when it was cheap af to build subways. They had a huge head start on Toronto.

There isn't the density on Finch Ave to justify a subway, elevated or underground, considering the current costs of metro construction and there never will be.

 

[lrt's friend]

Toronto would have been better off to put BRT in the LRT corridor. It would be a whole lot faster without all the automated and non-automated constraints imposed on trains. Heaven forbid if a bus driver went a little over the speed limit. to maintain schedule and no 25 kph speed limit at intersections.

Is one of the reasons for the failure to open Line 5 the embarrassing slow speed during testing?

 

[hw621]

Toronto would have been better off to put BRT in the LRT corridor. It would be a whole lot faster without all the automated and non-automated constraints imposed on trains. Heaven forbid if a bus driver went a little over the speed limit. to maintain schedule and no 25 kph speed limit at intersections.

Is one of the reasons for the failure to open Line 5 the embarrassing slow speed during testing?

Remember seeing some testing videos posted here showing pretty decent speed during testing. But it will be a different story once TTC starts operating it...

 

[urbanclient]

Finch West LRT using electric switch heaters Ottawa LRT inquiry warned against | Globalnews.ca

Since launching at the beginning of winter, the Finch West LRT has been beset by delays and service disruptions tied to the switch technology embedded in the new transit line.

globalnews.ca

"The Toronto system, like Ottawa before it, is using electric heaters to melt ice and snow stuck in its switching systems. The technology proved so problematic in Ottawa it had to be replaced."

Seems learnings from Ottawa not applied.

The inquiry was released in late 2022, more than 3 years ago. What exactly was the point of the inquiry if exactly 0 lessons were learned in effect? Heating railroad switches is not some novel technology that was invented by Metrolinx. Why do these clowns keep re-inventing the wheel? People keep bringing up Occam and Hanlon, but at this point, the track record is overwhelmingly negative. I refuse to believe people are so stupid, so consistently, for so long.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/lrt-inquiry-final-report-ottawa-problems-recommendations-1.6668152

You cannot convince me there wasn't some shady dealing here. There is no way you pay triple the capital cost of Paris T9 even with two gaudy stations taking 40% of the $2.5 billion capital budget. Take out the two stations and that's still double the €480 million price for a worse end product. Half the carbon footprint of the project came from the massive amount of concrete wasted on two terminus stations. 20 to 30 kilotonnes of CO2 equivalent. They also wasted millions on making the escalator shaft for the new LRT entrance so deep. Logically, the escalator should've ended at platform level depth, but no, they had to make it as deep as the subway station concourse and then build another set of escalators 10 metres up to LRT platform level. They literally excavated for an extra 10 metres of escalators and stairs for no good reason. When it's the taxpayer's dime, saving money doesn't matter; what matters is that your buddies at the construction consortium get more money for more 'work'.

Two quote and [annotate] @lastcommodore 's post, and credit to them for sending me this Twitter post originally:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1830618910389129325

"Beyond the longer post I made focused purely on the shelters of 6FW vs. ION, when compared to Paris' T9, which is nearly identical length, stop wise, and median-running tramway,
- CBTC is used on 6FW. T9 and ION both use far simpler signalling systems [CBTC is for semi-automated and fully automated metros, NOT manually operated trams]
- 6FW having massively overbuilt and excavated terminal stations- T9 has on-ground transfers
- 6FW MSF is actually 71% larger than T9s (6.5 Ha vs 3.8 Ha by my sat image) [despite Line 6 having a smaller fleet, 18 vs. 22]
- 6FW has multiple next-destination signs at some stops? I'm not even sure why on a 50m platform [Paris has 1 next-destination sign per stop]
- Massively overbuilt yet less effective shelters (see post linked above) [Paris at least has wider, more comfortable platforms that feel safer]
- Overbuilt catenary systems- both in general and the solid rail around the Humber turn [see Twitter post]
- Underground turns compared to T9's at-grade turns (and IONs. Interestingly, from my sat estimates the 6FW takes the Humber turn at 40m radius and 10kmh, while the T9 handles 30m radius turns at 15kmh.)

Frankly, it amazes me with how overbuilt the project is, they still are having issues with things like the switches. I suspect there was some poor design/construction wrt some of the heating systems for the switches. I don't want to believe someone just forgot that winter exists here in Toronto."

 

[Bureaucromancer]

The inquiry was released in late 2022, more than 3 years ago. What exactly was the point of the inquiry if exactly 0 lessons were learned in effect? Heating railroad switches is not some novel technology that was invented by Metrolinx. Why do these clowns keep re-inventing the wheel? People keep bringing up Occam and Hanlon, but at this point, the track record is overwhelmingly negative. I refuse to believe people are so stupid, so consistently, for so long.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/lrt-inquiry-final-report-ottawa-problems-recommendations-1.6668152

You cannot convince me there wasn't some shady dealing here. There is no way you pay triple the capital cost of Paris T9 even with two gaudy stations taking 40% of the $2.5 billion capital budget. Take out the two stations and that's still double the €480 million price for a worse end product. Half the carbon footprint of the project came from the massive amount of concrete wasted on two terminus stations. 20 to 30 kilotonnes of CO2 equivalent. They also wasted millions on making the escalator shaft for the new LRT entrance so deep. Logically, the escalator should've ended at platform level depth, but no, they had to make it as deep as the subway station concourse and then build another set of escalators 10 metres up to LRT platform level. They literally excavated for an extra 10 metres of escalators and stairs for no good reason. When it's the taxpayer's dime, saving money doesn't matter; what matters is that your buddies at the construction consortium get more money for more 'work'.

View attachment 708501

https://twitter.com/x/status/1830618910389129325

THIS is the point. We ought to be able to replicate Paris trams at similar cost and speed. If we were doing THAT LRT would makes sense on many corridors in the GTA. Whatever the hell is going on on Finch doesn't make ANY kind of sense... is ONLY excusable as a learning experience, but can't possibly BE that when we have everyone loudly demonstrating that they won't even look to our own domestic experiences, or do the most basic value engineering. The centenary thing is particularly revolting... streetcar standards are well established and would have made dramatically more sense but somehow *gestures at Finch*.

 

[urbanclient]

THIS is the point. We ought to be able to replicate Paris trams at similar cost and speed. If we were doing THAT LRT would makes sense on many corridors in the GTA. Whatever the hell is going on on Finch doesn't make ANY kind of sense... is ONLY excusable as a learning experience, but can't possibly BE that when we have everyone loudly demonstrating that they won't even look to our own domestic experiences, or do the most basic value engineering. The centenary thing is particularly revolting... streetcar standards are well established and would have made dramatically more sense but somehow *gestures at Finch*.

The more mind bogglingly part is not the overbuilt catenary IMO. there is at least some reasoning behind that decision. Toronto gets the rare freezing rain that is more common than in Paris. The more mind bogglingly part is the CBTC signalling. Line 6 is the only surface-only street running tram in the world that has CBTC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications-based_train_control#List

The massive MSF yard despite having a smaller fleet than Paris also makes no sense.

 

[duffo]

They also wasted millions on making the escalator shaft for the new LRT entrance so deep. Logically, the escalator should've ended at platform level depth, but no, they had to make it as deep as the subway station concourse and then build another set of escalators 10 metres up to LRT platform level. They literally excavated for an extra 10 metres of escalators and stairs for no good reason. When it's the taxpayer's dime, saving money doesn't matter; what matters is that your buddies at the construction consortium get more money for more 'work'.

View attachment 708501

Thank you for this informed and detailed engineering document. Next time I hope Metrolinx uses Paint for future as-built construction drawings.

 

[turbanplanner]

I don't think we should be using the Canada Line as an example considering it was intentionally underbuilt so it could open in time for the 2010 Olympics and overcrowding has been a persistent problem on the line ever since. Its cost per km looks nice on paper but it hides the reality that it delivered sub-par transit to that part of Vancouver and Vancouver sooner or later is going to have to invest a lot of money to fix this mistake and make the stations larger. You and I both know that if we went with option 3 there is no way it would be built elevated because at the time these decisions were being made "elevated" was a dirty word and every subway needed to be underground. Unfortunatly a certain mayor at the time convinced sububan residents that they deserved subways and anything less was treating them like second class citizens. In fact there are still people peddling that nonsense to this day when talking about the above ground sections of the EC (including the western extension), and the at grade and elevated sections of the OL. The anti-elevated narrative at City Hall didn't change until Doug was elected and the OL elevated as a cost-cutting measure (which was the right choice of course). Also this city doesn't need another 5 stop stubway that goes nowhere. We nearly made that mistake in the 90's on Eglinton, and its the reason the Sheppard Line has never lived up to its potential; and Finch West is a corridor with even less ridership potential then both Sheppard and Eglinton.

As someone who lived in Scarborough nobody outside that area seems to remember a GIANT STRETCH of that part of the city was "blocked" from going north or south past Eglinton!

To go north past eglinton you'd have to go several KM's to just u-turn and back track. It added hours a week to my commute, and the fact several turns don't exist anymore, and other streets get backed up due to turning cars. (Ex, trying to turn from Eglinton to warden)

For years, giant stretches of the road were absolutely destroyed! Warden has been a lumpy mess for years and the city will do nothing about it because the expect MX to pay!

Street View of Eglinton Ave E & Warden Ave. · Google Maps

Scarborough, ON M1L 2M5, Canada

maps.app.goo.gl

 

[TwoWheelPoli]

The inquiry was released in late 2022, more than 3 years ago. What exactly was the point of the inquiry if exactly 0 lessons were learned in effect? Heating railroad switches is not some novel technology that was invented by Metrolinx. Why do these clowns keep re-inventing the wheel? People keep bringing up Occam and Hanlon, but at this point, the track record is overwhelmingly negative. I refuse to believe people are so stupid, so consistently, for so long.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/lrt-inquiry-final-report-ottawa-problems-recommendations-1.6668152

You cannot convince me there wasn't some shady dealing here. There is no way you pay triple the capital cost of Paris T9 even with two gaudy stations taking 40% of the $2.5 billion capital budget. Take out the two stations and that's still double the €480 million price for a worse end product. Half the carbon footprint of the project came from the massive amount of concrete wasted on two terminus stations. 20 to 30 kilotonnes of CO2 equivalent. They also wasted millions on making the escalator shaft for the new LRT entrance so deep. Logically, the escalator should've ended at platform level depth, but no, they had to make it as deep as the subway station concourse and then build another set of escalators 10 metres up to LRT platform level. They literally excavated for an extra 10 metres of escalators and stairs for no good reason. When it's the taxpayer's dime, saving money doesn't matter; what matters is that your buddies at the construction consortium get more money for more 'work'.

View attachment 708501
Two quote and [annotate] @lastcommodore 's post, and credit to them for sending me this Twitter post originally:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1830618910389129325

"Beyond the longer post I made focused purely on the shelters of 6FW vs. ION, when compared to Paris' T9, which is nearly identical length, stop wise, and median-running tramway,
- CBTC is used on 6FW. T9 and ION both use far simpler signalling systems [CBTC is for semi-automated and fully automated metros, NOT manually operated trams]
- 6FW having massively overbuilt and excavated terminal stations- T9 has on-ground transfers
- 6FW MSF is actually 71% larger than T9s (6.5 Ha vs 3.8 Ha by my sat image) [despite Line 6 having a smaller fleet, 18 vs. 22]
- 6FW has multiple next-destination signs at some stops? I'm not even sure why on a 50m platform [Paris has 1 next-destination sign per stop]
- Massively overbuilt yet less effective shelters (see post linked above) [Paris at least has wider, more comfortable platforms that feel safer]
- Overbuilt catenary systems- both in general and the solid rail around the Humber turn [see Twitter post]
- Underground turns compared to T9's at-grade turns (and IONs. Interestingly, from my sat estimates the 6FW takes the Humber turn at 40m radius and 10kmh, while the T9 handles 30m radius turns at 15kmh.)

Frankly, it amazes me with how overbuilt the project is, they still are having issues with things like the switches. I suspect there was some poor design/construction wrt some of the heating systems for the switches. I don't want to believe someone just forgot that winter exists here in Toronto."

Wonder whether those electric switch heaters were also used for the Eglinton Crosstown LRT? This is bonkers!

 

[urbanclient]

The metro area of Barcelona is 6 million in an area smaller than downtown Toronto. This is the issue with throwing around population, its not apples and oranges. Whats important is population density.

Can y'all please at least fact check yourselves before posting outrageously false information? Instead of throwing around info off a cursory glance that confirms your biases of Toronto being a smaller global city, do better. The fact this misinformation was blindly upvoted 5 times is even more disappointing.

Barcelona city proper is 1.7 million over 100 sqkm. Barcelona's metro area is 5.8 million over 4,268 sqkm, an area notably NOT smaller than 630 sqkm Toronto proper, let alone 16.6 sqkm official downtown Toronto.

Toronto's 1,829 sqkm 'population centre' has well over 6 million people across an area less than half the size of Barcelona's 4,268 sqkm metro area.
Sources (posted extra as some StatsCanada pages are down): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_population_centres_in_Canada
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=9810001101
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1710015201

Population and dwelling counts: Canada and population centres - Open Government Portal

This table presents the 2021 and 2016 population counts and the 2021 dwelling counts, land area and population density for population centres. It also shows the percentage change in the population...

open.canada.ca

That is all not to mention that Toronto's 16.6 sqkm downtown is denser than any European downtown because of the sheer quantity of skyscrapers in such a small area.

Toronto would be the 3rd largest monocentric-y metro area (some would call this a city) by population in Western Europe, behind only London and Paris. 5th largest in Europe when including Istanbul and Moscow. Since these comparable metro areas are usually around the same land area, it naturally follows that Toronto's nominal densities within the inner core i.e. downtown, city proper are still easily in the top 5 in Western Europe.

Even the Barcelona "Polynuclear Urban Region" of 6.6 million over 6000 sqkm is less populated than the GTA with 7.7 million over 7100 sqkm.

Wonder whether those electric switch heaters were also used for the Eglinton Crosstown LRT? This is bonkers!

Thankfully, as other posts have mentioned, they apparently have not been used on Eglinton.

 

[robmausser]

Wonder whether those electric switch heaters were also used for the Eglinton Crosstown LRT? This is bonkers!

Luckily they have not been used. The Crosstown switches are different, arent buried in concrete and use different heaters, and can be easily heated with portable gas heaters if needed.

 

[nfitz]

The metro area of Barcelona is 6 million in an area smaller than downtown Toronto.

Barcelona's 1.7 million people are in that small an area - about 100 km² compared to the 840,000 in the old City of Toronto - 97 km².

But the 6 million people is for a much larger area metro Barcelona area - about 4,000 km². Compare to the 6 million people in the Toronto CMA - about 6,000 km².
No surprise that when you double the population density in such a large area, you have more lines.

The comment also ignores, than in addition to the 12 metro lines (L1 to L12) (165 km), they ALSO HAVE LRT LINES! Since the turn of the century they have opened 46 km of LRT (Lines T1 to T6). According to Wikipedia, the average speed on Line T4/T5/T6 is a whopping 19 km/hr - using the Alstom Citadis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trambesòs

As usual, people are deliberately choosing to compare apples and oranges. Including that some of the Metro lines are more like commuter rail lines than downtown subway lines. So where do we add the 500 km and 7 lines of Toronto commuter rail.

Ironically some of the issues on Line 6, is the Spanish engineering companies involved in the design - who have no clue about winter. What works in Barcelona, won't work when it's below freezing for weeks on end. Or when exposed to salt. Though how they didn't fix this and the Citadis issues after Ottawa, I don't know.

Barcelona - note the vast snowbanks

 

[urbanclient]

Barcelona's 1.7 million people are in that small an area - about 100 km² compared to the 840,000 in the old City of Toronto - 97 km².

But the 6 million people is for a much larger area metro Barcelona area - about 4,000 km². Compare to the 6 million people in the Toronto CMA - about 6,000 km².
No surprise that when you double the population density in such a large area, you have more lines.

The comment also ignores, than in addition to the 12 metro lines (L1 to L12) (165 km), they ALSO HAVE LRT LINES! Since the turn of the century they have opened 46 km of LRT (Lines T1 to T6). According to Wikipedia, the average speed on Line T4/T5/T6 is a whopping 19 km/hr - using the Alstom Citadis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trambesòs

As usual, people are deliberately choosing to compare apples and oranges. Including that some of the Metro lines are more like commuter rail lines than downtown subway lines. So where do we add the 500 km and 7 lines of Toronto commuter rail.

Again you are not reading before replying to further your own biases. The official Statistics Canada Toronto 'population centre' is 1,829.05 sqkm and has a population of 5,647,656 as of the 2021 Census. I am sure you are aware that the 2021 Census undercounted a lot of people and the population of the GTA has since grown almost 15%. A conservative 13% growth would put the Toronto population centre's population at 6.38 million. I posted 3 StatsCanada sources for you to no avail. Here is the most pertinent source again:

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=9810001101

I am well aware of the fact that 1.7 million Barcelona city proper is denser than Old Toronto at around 1 million as of 2026 for the same area. The outrageously false claim was '6 million over an area smaller than downtown Toronto'. A cursory glance by a mathematically inclined person would ring alarm bells. Pedantically, 6 million over 16.6 sqkm would be a density of over 360,000 per square kilometre. That would make Barcelona the densest city on the planet by an order of magnitude, no exaggeration. 6 million over <630 sqkm is not much better of a claim to those with knowledge of what the densest and largest cities are. The latter scenario would mean Barcelona is denser than Hong Kong, even though Barcelona has about 570 fewer skyscrapers than Hong Kong.

Seriously, has anyone here actually been to Barcelona? Get real people. Fact check yourselves. @nfitz you as well, like when you claimed Metrolinx had nothing to do with the TTC's 'fully funded' Eglinton Crosstown with no evidence, before being corrected by @Steve X and me.

 

[Bojaxs]

The whole motivation behind constructing Transit City was to bring "European" style transit to Toronto. Yet lines 5 & 6 weren't even constructed to European standards. So the city can't even operate them in a European manner. Which in some ways defeats the very purpose of having constructed Transit City.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

The more mind bogglingly part is not the overbuilt catenary IMO. there is at least some reasoning behind that decision. Toronto gets the rare freezing rain that is more common than in Paris. The more mind bogglingly part is the CBTC signalling. Line 6 is the only surface-only street running tram in the world that has CBTC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications-based_train_control#List

The massive MSF yard also makes no sense.

Didn't Edmonton try (and fail) with CBTC on the surface with the Metro line?