Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)

[Bordercollie]

If you read my message you will notice I mentioned I understand why Ottawa was added. However, having three stops between Toronto and Montreal will sadly make the trip longer unless some trains would be direct. As long they do it would fix my criticism.

But still doesn’t explain why more stops in Québec than Ontario when Ontario much bigger. The only thing that makes sense it’s your first bullet about Go Transit. However, in Montreal, both the Metro and the REM go to Laval so why HSR allowed to go to Laval and not Peel? And sorry for my ignorance, this is why I asked the question. If I wasn’t ignorant I would not be asking the question.

I do agree Laval the Mississauga of Montreal but it’s much much much smaller. If one city should have two stops it’s Toronto not Montreal. Both York Region and Peel Region bigger than Laval. Same with Durham and Scarborough. The train would need to reach of these to go downtown TO. Still puzzling Laval seems to be a priority of HSR.

Votes that's why. They want Quebec votes.

 

[MidtownKW]

It's a mistake to include Laval because the suburb is already well-connected to Montreal, the addition of the stop will increase costs and- more importantly- travel times. High speed rail is not supposed to serve as commuter rail.

If there are political considerations, then that's a different conversation and maybe Laval justifies itself by attracting support for the project. In any case, the fact that "Quebec gets" an extra stop should not be justification for extra needless stops in Ontario. Scarborough should not have a stop, and no one in favour of real HSR should want that.

 

[crs1026]

1) The project is not going West of Downtown Toronto right now. You can blame most of that on Metrolinx and the failed Ontario HSR plans, which basically ruled out federal HSR expansion West of Union. At best, if they go West, it's to Pearson and it's because they are using the Midtown Corridor. That's a stretch right now.

The one nitpick I would make (without disputing your end result) is the sequence and history .....in fact the Ontario plans were hatched before VIA HFR had gained attention, and came about for the very reason that at that moment Ottawa was clearly not interested in H(anything)R and Ontario realised that if it was going to solve its transportation problems it would have to go it alone.

And then, once Ontario played its willingness (at least superficially, Wynne never actually put skin in the game) to back HSR, Ottawa for a time concluded that they could back away and let Ontario knock themselves out. And after that, when interest sprouted for HxR, Ontario then backed away as they read potential for Ottawa to take up the task.

What has since changed as Alto has gone over the top into general public acceptance is the political realization in Ottawa that there are too many votes in Southern Ontario to exclude it from Alto....and the need is there.....but having put a line in the sand as a federal project, the only way to launch and build is to focus on T-O-M first and promise SW Ont later.

I continue to believe that if the issue were measured empirically, the need for HSR is most acute west of Toronto and growing, but not acute, to the east. So actually I would build Mtl-Ottawa and Toronto-KW-London in parallel, and let the others follow. Possibly Ontario should be contributing to the cost of that. But that's an academic perspective based on numbers and degree of current congestion alone, not politics.... the politics will override.

And to be fair to Metrolinx, none of this was their doing.... only recently did ML have a mandate to look beyond the GTA. At the time they were too busy failing at other projects to get involved here. So while I blame them for plenty, failing to plan or execute HSR isn't on them.

In the end, it is what it is, and the current plan will go forward while SW Ont waits.

- Paul

 

[CapitalSeven]

The Laval stop isn't for getting from Laval to Montreal. It's for getting from the NW sector of the Montreal area to Quebec City or Ottawa or Toronto, and vice versa. ALTO likely won't offer tickets for the short hop, the way you can't travel downtown from Fallowfield today. And not every train will necessarily stop there. There could well be Toronto to Montreal trains every couple of hours that don't stop anywhere. I think it's reasonable to expect stops to come back at Fallowfield and somewhere in Scarborough once they start doing consultations, or if not then, once trains start running.

 

[JJTheJetPln]

If this is supposed to be high speed rail that reaches speeds of up to 300km/h, the number of stops that are closer to each other will increase the duration of time it takes to get end to end, especially if we're sharing sections of the track with other operators in the corridor (GO, CN, CPKC, VIA). It seems like everyone wants a piece of the pie.

That being said, what even is the map now? Is it still speculation other than the Montreal/Laval/Ottawa route?

 

[urbanclient]

Votes that's why. They want Quebec votes.

Seconding what @Bordercollie said. It's political. Each Ontario corridor voter is less valuable than a Quebec corridor voter.

 

[CapitalSeven]

.....

That being said, what even is the map now? Is it still speculation other than the Montreal/Laval/Ottawa route?

There aren't any published maps that cohere with what ALTO is saying in words, and I suspect we won't see anything till the consultations start, unless there is a leak. But it seems like as straight a line as possible between Ottawa and Trois Rivieres with a right angle to downtown Montreal from Laval.

And please don't look at the putative CBC loboto-map a few pages back, which simply follows Montreal road from the Rideau Centre, then highways 174, 17, and 417 to the west Island. You could do a really nice 4 hour streetcar ride along there but that's about it.

 

[JJTheJetPln]

There aren't any published maps that cohere with what ALTO is saying in words, and I suspect we won't see anything till the consultations start, unless there is a leak. But it seems like as straight a line as possible between Ottawa and Trois Rivieres with a right angle to downtown Montreal from Laval.

And please don't look at the putative CBC loboto-map a few pages back, which simply follows Montreal road from the Rideau Centre, then highways 174, 17, and 417 to the west Island. You could do a really nice 4 hour streetcar ride along there but that's about it.

Appreciate it. I was beginning to wonder who came up with that because it made absolutely no sense.

 

[Bordercollie]

The one nitpick I would make (without disputing your end result) is the sequence and history .....in fact the Ontario plans were hatched before VIA HFR had gained attention, and came about for the very reason that at that moment Ottawa was clearly not interested in H(anything)R and Ontario realised that if it was going to solve its transportation problems it would have to go it alone.

And then, once Ontario played its willingness (at least superficially, Wynne never actually put skin in the game) to back HSR, Ottawa for a time concluded that they could back away and let Ontario knock themselves out. And after that, when interest sprouted for HxR, Ontario then backed away as they read potential for Ottawa to take up the task.

What has since changed as Alto has gone over the top into general public acceptance is the political realization in Ottawa that there are too many votes in Southern Ontario to exclude it from Alto....and the need is there.....but having put a line in the sand as a federal project, the only way to launch and build is to focus on T-O-M first and promise SW Ont later.

I continue to believe that if the issue were measured empirically, the need for HSR is most acute west of Toronto and growing, but not acute, to the east. So actually I would build Mtl-Ottawa and Toronto-KW-London in parallel, and let the others follow. Possibly Ontario should be contributing to the cost of that. But that's an academic perspective based on numbers and degree of current congestion alone, not politics.... the politics will override.

And to be fair to Metrolinx, none of this was their doing.... only recently did ML have a mandate to look beyond the GTA. At the time they were too busy failing at other projects to get involved here. So while I blame them for plenty, failing to plan or execute HSR isn't on them.

In the end, it is what it is, and the current plan will go forward while SW Ont waits.

- Paul

I don't know if everyone understands this but look at the London go train trial that left London at 4am and puffed along at 50kmph to Toronto even though driving would be faster.

High speed rail is nice to have. But maybe we should look at it as just having something is better than nothing.

I think if there was frequent trai service from KE to London existed people would take it. Maybe not at 40-50kmph but at original track speeds which is 80-90kmph

 

[zang]

They most definitely would not. The Chuo Shinkansen in Japan started construction in 2014 and is not scheduled to open until 2035.

The Chūō is a big exception here. It’s not a standard Shinkansen. It’s maglev and not exactly common technology. 500km/h trains lines aren’t just HSR with an upgrade.

 

[kEiThZ]

To reach downtown Toronto, the train will need to pass either North York, Scarborough or Durham the same way it will with Laval. Why not a stop there being all bigger than Laval?

I actually pondered this as well. Laval has a stop and I think Scarborough should get a stop somewhere near the 401 and Line 4 extension, it's on the way. Allowing those from North York and Scarborough, as well as people from York Region access the line without traveling downtown. After all, VIA does stop at Guildwood.

Not sure why people are assuming there won't be a GTA East stop. It was included in the earliest plans. And I think there will be one, as soon as they sort out their routing.

 

[kEiThZ]

I continue to believe that if the issue were measured empirically, the need for HSR is most acute west of Toronto and growing, but not acute, to the east. So actually I would build Mtl-Ottawa and Toronto-KW-London in parallel, and let the others follow. Possibly Ontario should be contributing to the cost of that. But that's an academic perspective based on numbers and degree of current congestion alone, not politics.... the politics will override.

Different purposes. And I think a lot of Western GTA HSR fans suddenly discovering this forum and this thread are missing the point here too.

A substantially part of the federal motivation for HSR was to reduce flying. Over and above driving. It was actually part of their climate policy a while back. Connecting Toronto, Ottawa, Montréal and Québec will reduce demand for flights between those cities substantially. Those are all the busiest airports in the Corridor.

The need in SWO is different. It's essentially to facilitate supercommuters from Kitchener and London. That's a remit that is lot closer to what Metrolinx does.

And to be fair to Metrolinx, none of this was their doing.... only recently did ML have a mandate to look beyond the GTA. At the time they were too busy failing at other projects to get involved here. So while I blame them for plenty, failing to plan or execute HSR isn't on them.

The biggest failure of Metrolinx is not getting the network expansion and electrification sufficiently underway that extending West of Union is easy.

If Alto is built, we all know it will go West. But when that happens is going to depend on Metrolinx making it easier.

 

[crs1026]

Different purposes. And I think a lot of Western GTA HSR fans suddenly discovering this forum and this thread are missing the point here too.

A substantially part of the federal motivation for HSR was to reduce flying. Over and above driving. It was actually part of their climate policy a while back. Connecting Toronto, Ottawa, Montréal and Québec will reduce demand for flights between those cities substantially. Those are all the busiest airports in the Corridor.

The need in SWO is different. It's essentially to facilitate supercommuters from Kitchener and London. That's a remit that is lot closer to what Metrolinx does.

True... and I'm not sure that SW Ontario needs full Alto, yet. A half billion invested in a stopgap regional line (that will likely never cease to be needed, as it can serve the places that HSR will fly past) but need not be as elaborate or high speed would suffice for 10-15 years or more.

As to flying - I agree that the airports are filling up. But Billy Bishop isn't at capacity....yet. That's why I would argue we have a little time left before there is a crisis. Same with the 401 east of Cobourg, once one gets beyond the commuter zone there is capacity. Putting the existing VIA on new tracks as far as only Port Hope, with the intent of building a new Lakeshore regional line all the way to Kingston, would enable better regional service and help get more cars off the 401 west of Belleville.

- Paul

 

[Bordercollie]

True... and I'm not sure that SW Ontario needs full Alto, yet. A half billion invested in a stopgap regional line (that will likely never cease to be needed, as it can serve the places that HSR will fly past) but need not be as elaborate or high speed would suffice for 10-15 years or more.

As to flying - I agree that the airports are filling up. But Billy Bishop isn't at capacity....yet. That's why I would argue we have a little time left before there is a crisis. Same with the 401 east of Cobourg, once one gets beyond the commuter zone there is capacity. Putting the existing VIA on new tracks as far as only Port Hope, with the intent of building a new Lakeshore regional line all the way to Kingston, would enable better regional service and help get more cars off the 401 west of Belleville.

- Paul

90-100mph is faster than the car, especially with traffic on the 401 and snow storms and truck roll overs.

The dundas Sub is limited to 80mph. If you could upgrade it to 100mph in straight sections that could make trip timee faster.

Since there is talk about a train to Chicago again I would think that they would upgrade this track. Or buy out the northern subdivision and add passing tracks. The st Marys bridge would need to be upgraded also.

 

[canucks2030]

Not sure why people are assuming there won't be a GTA East stop. It was included in the earliest plans. And I think there will be one, as soon as they sort out their routing.

Because at this point in time it’s not on the map. Of course things can change but Laval was always part of the plan and for Toronto currently it isn’t. It’s puzzling Laval a priority being the only suburb included in the project so far.

It’s possible it’s because they have not made the decision where the 2nd station would be, if any, however I would advertise Toronto (2) if this is the case. From the information we know so far I have to assume only one stop for Toronto versus two for Montréal.

Considering the size of GTA and GMA two stops for each reasonable to attract more riders, not for regional rail but to go in the other major cities along the route as long an express downtown Montreal to downtown Toronto part of the plan. Once the infrastructure there I do not see any reason it would not be possible.